Superintendent Amanda King - Insights from the Head of NaCTSO

Host - Lucy Hagger

Hello and welcome to Totally Terrorism, a Pool Re podcast. My name is Lucy Hagger, a Threat Analyst at Pool Re. In this episode, we're joined by Superintendent Amanda King, the Head of the National Counter Terrorism Security Office (NaCTSO).

Today, we’ll explore Amanda’s distinguished 30 year career in the policing and counterterrorism space, her current role as the head of NaCTSO, as well as the incredible work they currently carry out. 

We hope you enjoy this episode of Totally Terrorism, and if you would like to hear future episodes, please subscribe through your streaming app of choice or sign up for regular updates through poolre.co.uk/signup. 

Please note, this episode was recorded on the 12th of December 2024, prior to the Vehicle as a Weapon attacks conducted in Germany and New Orleans. 

Amanda King, welcome to Totally Terrorism.

Guest Expert - Amanda King

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Host - Lucy Hagger

No worries, it's our pleasure to have you here. So to start, if we could just do a quick introduction. So, if you could introduce yourself to our listeners and outline the experiences which have led you to be speaking with me today?

Guest Expert - Amanda King 

Yes, of course. So, like you said, I'm Amanda King, but people normally call me Mandy, and I'm currently the Head of the National Counter Terrorism Security Office, or NaCTSO, as it's known. I've been in policing now for…gosh, 30 years…and I think probably like many officers that joined the Met in the mid-90s, I couldn't have predicted the kind of career path that I would have travelled.

I felt really passionate about what I perceive to be the inadequacies of the criminal justice system in the 80s and how, in particular, it handled violence against women and girls and actually believed it needed changing, but wouldn't change unless the people in it changed. And that was kind of my next step, probably supported by my degree in behavioural sciences, that made me want to join the police…to make a difference, not only as an officer, but I think also as a woman.

I've served in London and in Glasgow across all police business areas, so frontline policing, professionalism, serious and organised crime and now lately specialist operations. So, my first posting was to Charing Cross Police Station in Central London in 1995, but actually I think my first passion was intelligence. And it's actually being the Protection Intelligence Manager at the height of the 2017 Westminster attacks that actually then occurred and led me to my second passion, which is Protect and Prepare.

So, in that Protect and Prepare arena I have managed the London Counter Terrorism Security Advisors, or the audience potentially will know them as CTSAs. I've held lead roles across Counter Terrorism borders, so that's been responsible for aviation, maritime, international travel, which is particularly interesting at the time of EU exit and COVID.

I was a senior leader in Royalty and Specialist Protection, and was fortunate enough to be a CTSECO, or Security Coordinator, during the Queen's funeral. So, I was responsible for her lying in state and also for the queue…or I should say the queue for the queue for the queue by the time it had finished. As well as key roles in the Coronation, and like I said, I now head up NaCTSO which actually is where we set much of the policy and the practice that we've used across all of my previous roles. And I think ultimately, this background in intelligence and Protect and Prepare is probably why I'm speaking to you here today at Pool Re.

Host - Lucy Hagger

That's great, Mandy. Thank you very much for sharing that. So, you mentioned that you first started your career at Charing Cross Police Station in 1995, so that was during the IRA mainland bombing campaign. Could you tell us a little bit more about what terrorism felt like at that point and perhaps how you felt about coming into the service at such a time?

Guest Expert - Amanda King

Yeah, I think you know, the IRA threat was something that we grew up with. It was, you know, embedded in society at that time. And I'd studied British government and politics as an A-Level. So, I had some understanding of The Troubles and the background. I think as a probationer, I was regularly assigned to security patrols down Westminster and the surrounding areas. But I think despite the Bishopsgate Bombing in 1993, and even those early protective security measures, so we had the Ring of Steel, for example, I was really complacent to that threat. I think complacent in terms of my actions. So, you know, whether that was checking unattended bags without following the process, trying to save time and minimise resources and disruption to the public, but also naive to the fact that actually that could happen when I was on duty and I might have to deal with it. I think plus there's always the assumption with that particular threat that there will be a coded warning left, and I think that highlights really the importance of frontline policing awareness now. And the fact that actually, in terms of preparedness, every officer is a CT officer; a counterterrorism officer. 

I think my realisation probably changed a little bit following the Aldwych bus bomb, I think was about 1996. You know, standing on a cordon was something I did regularly in Central London at that time, although it is really, really tricky to set up a cordon that is big enough and doesn't bring London to a standstill. But it still didn't, I think, at that time feel like real policing to me. And besides, I think Special Branch in those days was actually impenetrable to me, not only as a woman, but also because of how young I was. I was, you know, 21/22 years of age back then. I think the nature of Republican terrorism felt different. It had developed over a number of decades. It was quite military in its approach. The IRA had presented themselves as this organised military force and actually had that engineering capability and capacity, so it was developing planting devices, and that intent to get away. 

So, when we look on the flip side now, we're now planning for that possible attacks where the weaponry that is being used is that low-sophistication, and actually the perpetrators, they have little concern for their own safety, or their own capture. And the ideologies seem somewhat less refined, or disciplined, or even predictable. So, I think the work that my teams do at NaCTSO has to be around developing advice for that, kind of, wide range of both threats and attack vectors. You know, we're talking about incendiary devices, Marauding Terror Attacks, the use of Vehicle as a Weapon, and they're just a few examples. But, I think it's really important to know that that threat type hasn't gone away. We've got our colleagues in PSNI in Ireland who are still dealing with that Republican-inspired violence in the UK. Especially London, I think, particularly continues to be that stage where other countries will, kind of, pursue their own agendas and, you know, against people who oppose our regime.

Host - Lucy Hagger

That's incredibly interesting. Thank you very much for sharing. So you've touched on how you've seen terrorism change over the past 30 years. But could you just tell us a little bit more about how it's changed and also how your team, and policing, has had to adjust to counter the changing threat?

Guest Expert - Amanda King

Yeah. I mean I think change is constant, right? I don't know who said that, I think it might have been Einstein, certainly not me, but they're right. I think we have focused for so many years on planned attacks on crowded places; on iconic locations. You know, in reality that is how I link myself back to when I first started walking up and down Whitehall because of those iconic places. But we've seen, you know, from recent attacks, they can happen anyplace, anytime. And actually, I've already said, you know, that threat remains from Dissident Republicanism. So, I think last year there was an attempted attack, or attempted murder, of a PSNI Officer who was simply helping out at his, you know, his sons, or I think it was his child's football training. We've got the Islamist threats, you know, people still allied to Daesh and ISIS. And then also we're seeing a, you know, an increase in that Extreme Right-Wing behaviour or people actually with less defined motivations, many who are, kind of, looking at that online material and actually self-radicalising. 

And then I think we can't forget those people who fall within that, kind of, don’t know what you would call it. Is it grey zone? So, they use violence to cause that fear, and they cause that harm, but the motivation is not entirely clear, and I think, you know, sometimes it's in response to the geopolitics that we've seen playing out recently and that, kind of, thin line between, you know, using violence in the name of protest. I think there's lots of commentary recently about that, especially when we refer to the incidents over the summer, but I mention it just to highlight the complexity of, you know, what we're facing in policing, but also in the security industry as a whole, and that's before we even talk about misinformation or disinformation. I think for obvious reasons that I'm not going to go into detail about, there are other threats that we are seeing and we're working closely with our partners in the security services. I think it was very useful, we had the Director General of MI5 recently spoke out very candidly about the threat. And I think as we see more cases moving, you know, through the criminal justice system in relation to that, countering the state threat, that awareness across society will increase.

I think, ultimately, we have to be prepared to respond to that variety of threats and that's ranging from those highly sophisticated and targeted state sponsored activities that I've just alluded to, to those very basic and actually seemingly quite random, sometimes, acts. In places that probably in the 1990s, we would not have predicted that they would have taken place. You know that shift in the targets, or terrorism targets, I think raises questions about who is responsible for the protection and preparedness across the country. You know, is it just the police? I think not. I mean, this is being widely debated at the moment and obviously we're working toward that legislative space including the, you know, the much awaited Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill, or Martyn’s Law that it's more commonly known, that’s been championed by courageous Figen Murray. Obviously, I can't talk about that because it's currently making its way through Parliament now, but it's, you know, that is really key. I think we need to accept that actually, though, legislative changes take time and I don't think we can wait. I think society becomes complacent, just as I did when I was kicking that, you know, abandoned suitcase or whatever it might have been back in 1995. And I think it's not actually a matter of time about, you know, a matter of if another attack happens…it's when…we're just waiting for it. So we need to be ready. 

I think that's where my teams in NaCTSO come in, and I couldn't actually be prouder of all the work that they're doing under the Protect and Prepare arms of CONTEST; the government's CONTEST strategy. I think, it's essentially, it's our job to take intelligence and this insight about a really broad range of threats and develop that evidence – and it's got to be evidence based, you know, we need to ensure that we're learning – so that evidence-based advice, guidance, but also the practical products that people can use. And that's drawing on commission data, academic research, like I've mentioned. But it's also got to be peer reviewed and tested and exercised in consultation and collaboration with really key stakeholders. So I'm talking about the security services, the government, industry, but also much wider. And I think it's because of who we are, so you know, NaCTSO are very much part of Counter Terrorism Policing, we have access to that information and partners that others don't in private industry. And we also have that national reach through, actually, really highly trained and really highly developed network of officers and staff who give us that credible and, I believe, authoritative voice.

I think it's clear, though, it's not just policing that needs to adjust to counter this changing threat and we support others in that aim. For example, the whole ACT suite of E-learning products that NaCTSO have created and share on ProtectUK. We have products like “ACT in a Box” which is a relatively new product; basically a self-service testing and exercising product. So, there's loads of information and guidance out there to support others to help us in our aim.

Host - Lucy Hagger

Thank you very much Mandy for explaining about the changing threat and a bit about what your team does. Could you explain a little bit more about what your current role as the Head of NaCTSO is and what this entails? 

Guest Expert - Amanda King

Yeah, absolutely. It's very broad…I have to say…quite a lot to juggle. So, NaCTSO focuses on Protect and Preparedness, and actually we're held to account, like I've just mentioned, by the government's CONTEST strategy. So, on the whole, I'm responsible for four broad areas. 

So firstly, we develop policy and guidance. So, people will know already about Martyn’s Law, but the work we do on Venues and Public Spaces, probably known more commonly as VAPS, is much wider than that. As well as the premises that fall under the proposed Martyn’s Law Standard and Enhanced Tiers, and other legislative frameworks such as Hazardous Sites and Substances, we're also working within that unregulated space, so it's really important that we can influence others. We do have to ensure that those micro, small-medium enterprises, or shared space…and that's going back to the venues and public spaces and underlying spaces fall outside of those legal frameworks. And, you know, how are they going to be protected in themselves or protect the public and their members of staff who are within them? I think that's the area we're working towards with the local approach. Now that's working with local authorities and others to…and we're working, you know, across the UK to build that security mindset and also build in that response to policies and practises to make sure it's second nature. A little bit akin to health and safety legislation, for example. This could be as simple as ensuring that there's the right first-aid kit, so, pack kits in the public arena or that high streets are designed from the outset with that Hostile Vehicle Mitigation in mind. I think to support this we're developing lots of new toolkits and resources. I've already alluded to a couple and people will have seen other things like the risk assessment and management tools or the stakeholder CT menu of tactical options that are again all on ProtectUK. It's all practical advice, they all reflect the current risk, and most importantly, they're all free.

So, moving on from that area of my portfolio…My second area is the Operations Teams and they prepare for, and respond to, incidents. So that involves reviewing, testing, assuring, what our overarching terrorist incident response plans are, and tasking, and coordinating forces across the UK with Protect and Prepare tactics to mitigate the threat. And now that could be in preparedness, but also it could be in response to live incidents that are happening. So, everyone across the security industry no doubt will be doing exactly the same. We just, I believe, do it on a wider scale and actually to a broader audience. Actually, sometimes we do it without trying to flag that we do it because we don't want to cause alarm unnecessarily, or jeopardise live investigations that I've talked about. NaCTSo also delivers hands on protection. So, we are responsible for the National Barrier Asset, which is constantly deployed across the UK, but actually also in Europe occasionally, for example, preventing events being subject to a vehicle attack. I also have a team who work with individuals and organisations in relation to their personal security. And that could be, you know, an example being during the summer on the build up to the election, we were giving a lot of information to our politicians as well as running, you know, those large scale briefings for elected officials.

I suppose the third area that I'm responsible for is professional capability. So, they develop and deliver accredited training and development pathways for our CTSAs, the Counter Terrorism Security Advisors, across the country. But also, our Prepare Officers, our Disruptive Effects Officers…so you might be aware of the SERVITOR teams…and they kind of work to ensure that that network across the UK are skilled, but also up to date with the current threats. We also are responsible for the development of the Competent Persons Scheme, so that's working to deliver the Competent Person in the workplace qualification and a separate register…but there's more about that in the spring, so I'm not going to spoil any surprises.

And then, fourthly, engagement for us is key, especially in that unregulated space that I've already spoken about, where we rely on our ability to influence. We recognise, I think most importantly, that we can't do this alone and we need help from others, not only to identify vulnerabilities and solutions, but also to amplify our messages, provide feedback on our products - and that's feedback in relation to what's working, but actually probably most importantly what isn't. I’m fortunate enough to co-chair with industry, the Counter Terrorism Business Information Exchange, or CTBIE as it's known. And it's a real privilege actually to work with those sector leads who are actually just as passionate as me and my teams about embedding Protect and Prepare within industry…they really do make a difference and they actually strive to ensure that their staff, but also the wider public are protected. And of course, we don't just work with the private sector, so we're really busy having established two way dialogue with lead government departments, such as Health, such as Education. We also work with devolved administrations and local authorities again, to influence that policy setting, as well as the voluntary sector. So I think we're really unique in that position.

And then finally my fifth and final area is data capability. So, it's about, you know, how do we share our voice and our tools more broadly? And actually, it's been with the support of Pool Re that we've managed to create ProtectUK. It's a vehicle for sharing basic know-how…so please everybody, do go on there and have a look at our website. I've alluded already to that kind of rich content that is being developed; such as Counter Terrorism, Crime Prevention Toolkits, and that's aimed at small and medium businesses. Plus we also use the platform to signpost partner advice that is also relevant and that just shows that we are working to join up and collaborate such as with NPSA, National Protective Security Authority, and some of their great advice, such as insider threats. Think one of our big pushes for the next year is about updating the platform. So it's improving the user journeys by making the content easier to find, improving that digital optimization, mobilisation, and connecting users to the guidance that's actually relevant to them. We also listen and learn, so you'll remember that I spoke about that grey area or grey zone earlier on, where that violence may be terrorism, but it may not be. And I think it's really important to say that a lot of the advice that we've got on ProtectUK is just as useful for tackling crime, tackling protest, tackling anti-social behaviour. I think we realise we needed to kind of create our advice around specific situations just so that when it was a fast moving situation occur, that advice was there and ready to be used.

So, as an example, I think during the violent disorder that I've already mentioned in the summer, we were able to push out links to wider policing and to business, offering that practical advice to protect the premises and individuals. And I think we've received really positive feedback for doing that. And again, I have already mentioned and I'm trying to promote it, that it is all free. And it's a timely reminder I think, when we're having, you know, financial pressures everywhere, not just in policing but within the security industry, that there are lots and lots of no-or-low cost Protect and Prepare processes and measures, or procedures and measures, that businesses can put into place, and that's kind of from the smallest voluntary-run community organisations, right through to those, you know, those huge organisations who have got their own security teams wrapped around them. So, please do check out all those resources that are available to you, and that includes like awareness posters, policy templates. 

I think it's a lot that that we cover at NaCTSO. I think, importantly, the work is driven by an innovative, passionate, and determined group of subject matter experts who demonstrate, actually, so much resilience in terms of funding and resourcing constraints, and they just strive to embed that protect and preparedness culture across society.

Host - Lucy Hagger

Thank you, Mandy. As you said, you cover such a wide range of things and it's absolutely incredible work, so thank you for sharing that. You've seen almost every level of UK policing and you have a wide variety of experiences, so perhaps you could share some insight into how you believe the policing and the security industry has changed over your career. Maybe some of the lessons that you've learnt? And also, I know that you're very passionate about diversity and inclusion. So, I was wondering what your perspective is, and how you see diversity playing a role in countering terrorism and in policing and the security industry in general.

Guest Expert - Amanda King

Yeah, I am, you're right, I'm very passionate about it. Our operating environment is very diverse and complex and I believe if we don't flex and evolve in our response to terrorism, and actually policing more broadly, then I think we stagnate and we fail. And I don't, you know, don't get me wrong, we have come a long way already. I have got a quote that I use during mentoring that I do with groups of young females and it's a news article from the 1930s and it was about female recruitment into the Metropolitan Police and it says…“they must be hefty enough to withstand rough and tumble, and they must be fairly good looking, and they must never marry”. So, you know, that kind of puts it into context. 

When I joined the police, there were far fewer senior officers that were women and, you know, no one talked openly about subjects such as menopause or flexible working. And I think that was actually the same for all protected characteristics, not just gender. And specialist roles in particular, were often just impenetrable. So things have changed, but there's still more to do. How can you keep ahead of, you know, threats and overcome challenges when you've got a limited range of experience and outlooks to draw on? So, we're starting to understand the wide range of factors that draw people into crime and terrorism. So, things like neuro-diversity, violence in the home, those cultural pressures, social media platforms, for example, that, you know, simply just didn't exist when I first joined the police. And actually, I still find really tricky to navigate at the moment.

But when engagement is, you know, central really to our work, you know, why are we going to limit our options to having identical employees with identical experiences and identical attitudes, you know, to change? I think we're really starting to talk about those links between terrorism and violence against women and girls. But at the same time, in doing that, we also need to recognise public confidence in how policing have historically, and actually to a certain extent, still handle abuse is not necessarily ideal. So, we still, I think, have more to do.

I think when we look at representation, female representation and opportunity in policing is absolutely improving. But it's still poor across some specialised units, including specialist operations where I work. And I think that's probably reflected in the security industry as a whole as well, which, you know, is predominantly male. I think I read somewhere that there was about 11% of females in the security industry, which surely makes, you know, search and screening tricky at the very least. But that goes right from your guard force, right up to C-Suite level. And I think the figures are worse when you actually look at layering. So, you know, single parents or those with caring responsibilities. I personally understand how difficult it is to juggle. I'm a single mum and during the Queen’s funeral I was away from home for 11 days. So, one minute I was kind of negotiating, you know, with key senior stakeholders, how many armed protection officers I was going to have in Westminster Hall or directing live incidents…and then the next I was fielding, you know, phone calls from my children asking where their rugby socks were or when the Sainsbury's shop was going to be delivered. But what I'm saying is it's really tricky to achieve that work-life balance, but we need to learn how to work smarter and to remove all those unnecessary barriers. 

When I worked at Royalty and Specialist Protection, I actually led on a cultural change and that was pending the Casey Report. So Casey and Angelini have been huge lessons for us to learn, and we had to go back to basics. So, it was things like, you know, the kit and the equipment or the facilities that we have. And thankfully, you know, those days when I first joined where women were issued with a tiny truncheon and a skirt that we had to swap out when we arrived on division with a male truncheon…it is kind of behind us. But, you know, it's only recently that we've gone ahead and commissioned the unisex suits from high street brands that have pockets and have belt loops that, actually, male colleagues just take as a norm. It's also really positive to see that the Met have also done a lot of work to create a ballistic body armour, for example, that now is suitable for different breast sizes. We've also had to demystify what our processes look like, such as making sure there's inclusive recruitment in place, or including familiarisation events, where females can be there and handle the weapons, you know, feel how heavy they are.

But ultimately I think it's about building that trust and confidence, not only in our workforce, but in society and making sure that we've got those robust and consistent professional standards and processes in place. That for me is pivotal. And I think, you know, cultural change is wider than the things I've mentioned, so it's wider than kit and equipment, it's wider than the facilities. But it's a starting point, and I think recognising that, the value that diverse teams brings. Policing and security needs role models, and it's important that those role models pay it forwards. So that's, you know, we've got great groups like the Women in Counter Terrorism and Women in Security that really help with this cause. But change takes time and, you know, impostor syndrome remains a problem. You know, despite what I advocate in mentoring, I'm still actually terrified about taking the next step into private industry when I do retire from policing and move on to something new.

The point is, I think it's never sensible to have an exclusive culture. You know, criminals and terrorists certainly aren't stereotypical, and how much better equipped are we to deal with all of Protect and Prepare challenges if we have that wide mix of experiences, backgrounds, and outlooks to draw upon at every point of management, you know, not just at the bottom, but at every point?

Host - Lucy Hagger

Thank you very much Mandy for sharing your story and your experiences. And that's a really important message to get out, so thank you. Perhaps now it would be great if we could talk about the terrorism threat to the UK. So, in your opinion, what is the predominant terrorism threat to the UK at this time?

Guest Expert - Amanda King

Well, I mean that's quite difficult. You know, none of the threat vectors have gone away and we know attack planning, whatever the ideology, continues. And that's targeting people, it's targeting places, it's targeting our state. I've already mentioned the Director General of MI5 speech, but we also heard recently from ACTSO Matt Jukes, who has reiterated that we're dealing with people who have unclear or unpredictable ideologies, who are not part of traditional organisational command and control structures. I don't think one-size-fits-all. I think a state actor, for example, might be looking at a Critical National Infrastructure, while a Right-Wing Extremist might be researching migrant hostels, a solo Islamist may be thinking of attacking a concert, and then we might have, you know, an incel planning to attack young women outside a nightclub. 

We know that there are competing demands with finite resources, and that's across policing and the security industry. I think it's just really important to ensure that we are intelligence-led and we adopt that prioritised approach. So,  at NaCTSO we have been focusing on developing decision making models and risk management processes. Again, all for free, are accessible via ProtectUK, and it's really important to continually review and test. We promote our tools as widely as possible, and that includes across government departments and the private sector, much of which is, you know, like I've said, is applicable even if there isn't a defined terrorist element at stake. And we try to keep our advice up to date and that's by talking to our colleagues, for example, in the Pursue arm of CONTEST who are working on 800+ live investigations. Or it could be by studying events that are happening around the world at the moment and sharing those insights with other police and security agencies.

I suppose that's why I'm a little bit nervous to say it's just one thing or another that we should look out for. I think it's, you know, NaCTSO’s job to explain and advise how the threat picture is changing and be that reliable point of contact that people can trust in. That's, you know, that's referring to that authoritative voice again.

Host - Lucy Hagger

Thank you for your answer. I guess that kind of was a bit of a trick question. But that's also something that we think about here at Pool Re, is just the diversity of threats, as you say, lots of different things to be thinking about. So, if we could maybe focus more on the future now. So, something that we tend to ask our guests on the podcast is what they think the future of terrorism looks like. So, how do you see the threat evolving in the next 5 to 10 years?

Guest Expert - Amanda King

To be honest, I think it's more about how we evolve as opposed to how the threat evolves. You know, that's not just policing; that's security professionals and society as a whole. And that's at every level. I think it's about having that evidence base, having the processes, having those digital solutions, and probably most importantly, that mindset that can get ahead of the curve and deal with whatever is thrown at us. So my VAPS team, the Venues and Public Spaces Team I've talked about earlier in NaCTSO, are working really hard to develop that shared ownership, particularly in relation to space, and that's often referred to as grey space, and we call it the local approach. So, it recognises the importance and effectiveness of working closely at that local level and whether that be with local authorities and their partners to embed protective security and preparedness principles throughout their business as usual activity. And that could be, for example, planning or licencing departments at the point of, you know, new builds…building in that protection and preparedness into their day-to-day thinking.

We work with a range of sectors, so your Business Improvement Districts, or Chambers of Commerce, for example. Also academia, to identify and spread all that relevant good practise and build agility into that standard, you know, those standard response plans that we are helping to develop anyway. I think ultimately this allows our resources to be flexed and reallocated according to the current and emerging threats so that we can then respond, kind of, at pace when an incident happens and we're always going to be ahead of the curve. I think it's really important to probably stress again that this is not something that we can do in isolation. So I supposed it's a team sport with an increasing number of players, and using that analogy, I see NaCTSO as being a bit of a coach. It sounds a bit cheesy that, I know, but I'm really proud of what my teams and the partners that we work with and who share our commitment are doing in in terms of protecting the UK at the moment. But I think, you know, my, my big signposts to end this with is please do refer to ProtectUK and the wealth of advice and guidance and products that is on there.

Host - Lucy Hagger

Thank you, Mandy. I loved your sporting analogies and I also really like your first line of how it's how we change and evolve, not necessarily the actual terrorism threat. So, thank you very much. We'll end on that note. So, Mandy, thank you very much for coming on the podcast today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you here.

Guest Expert - Amanda King

Thank you so much for inviting me and listening to me.

Host - Lucy Hagger

No worries. Thank you.

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