Steve McGrath - Managing Risk at Wembley Stadium

Host - Oliver Hair

Hello and welcome to Totally Terrorism. My name is Oliver Hair, a Threat Analyst at Pool Re. In this episode, we're joined by Steve McGrath, the Head of Security for Wembley National Stadium, responsible for security strategy, policy, crisis management and asset protection.

Today, I’ll be speaking to Steve about his distinguished career in counter terrorism policing, the evolving nature of terrorism threat in the UK, the many facets of protecting an iconic site like Wembley, as well as Steve’s own top tips for businesses seeking to mitigate terrorism threat. 

We hope you enjoy this episode of Totally Terrorism, and if you would like to hear future episodes, please subscribe through your streaming app of choice or sign up for our regular updates through poolre.co.uk/signup. 

Steve McGrath, welcome to Totally Terrorism.

Guest - Steve McGrath

Good morning, Ollie.

Host - Oliver Hair

Before we begin, could you please give a brief introduction to who you are, your current role, as well as the experiences which have led you to be speaking with me today?

Guest - Steve McGrath

Yeah, absolutely. But first of all, Ollie, thank you for inviting me across. It's always a pleasure to speak to you, and actually it's really nice to be in Pool Re. My previous role…at the moment I'm the Head of Security at Wembley Stadium, Wembley National Stadium, give its full name, but over the years I've done quite a bit of work with Pool Re, particularly while I was working with NaCTSO, my last job. It's actually here that I first met my counterterrorism SIG wingman, Andy Donaldson. Andy was working here at Pool Re at the time, and we often sort of joked about it. You know, Andy's now the Head of Security across at The Shard. But while he was here, we joked about the fact of, I actually started in insurance and then went into policing, and he started in policing and ended up in insurance. So…that sort of strange synergy between the two of us. And now here we are looking after two of the most iconic buildings in London. 

What got me to being here? 31 years in the police service, starting off in CID in an investigative role, moving into covert policing. Set up an offender management unit with the probation service, so I was looking at diverting offenders away from offending, which was a little bit different from the investigations side. I was one of the police advisors on Hot Fuzz bizarrely, probably one of the career highlights. But unusually for a detective, I moved into an operations role. It's not usual you'll find investigators will go into an operations role, but it was there that I became tactical firearms commander, police counterterrorism security coordinator, looked after the search advisers, firearms, road safety unit, helicopters, all those sorts of things…public order. And it gave me that good all rounding of  the investigative side and the operational side. So, you look back into those days, I think I've looked after in some form of operation or other, every Prime Minister since Margaret Thatcher, who wasn't Prime Minister at the time…because I'm not that old…right up to the present day, you know, with Sir Kier Starmer. I've looked after most of the Royal Family, looked after the royal household, an American President at one point looking after the entire government at a party election campaign, so it was an interesting time.

So, with having that background, investigations and operations, it made me a great candidate for becoming a Protect and Prepare lead in counterterrorism policing. So, I moved into that sort of world and it was looking at building readiness, response, recovery for businesses within the region, and exercising and testing some of the emergency services. So emergency services, borough and local resilience forums, and even the military. It was from that that I gained more experience within counterterrorism. My background comes from...I was involved in the investigation team for the Salisbury poisonings and it was from the work that I did there that I moved into NaCTSO, so the National Counter Terrorism Security Office for those who aren't aware. And it's there I say I've had probably the coolest job in NaCTSO because I was the Head of ICE. So, I was the Head of Information, Capability and Engagement. So, I led on the ACT products, again, sharing information with business. Sharing that best practise…bringing businesses in to be involved in consultation and setting up ProtectUK as one of the many things.

Host - Oliver Hair

Thank you Steve, that’s great and a huge breadth of experience on which to base today’s episode. For the purpose of today's conversation and the main theme of Totally Terrorism, I was wondering if we could focus a bit more on that time in policing and perhaps how you've seen the terrorism threat change from when you first started out in your career all the way up to today?

Guest - Steve McGrath

Yeah, absolutely. In my time in policing, how terrorism has changed? Well, I suppose even though I wasn't there in the 1970s, I only joined in the 1990s, but you know, terrorism's changed massively since the 1970s. Where you look at scope and with tactics. 70s, 80s, into the 90s was really characterised by a lot of high-profile incidents, not only nationally but internationally. Hijackings, bombings, kidnappings. And they were often carried out by those ideologically driven groups like, for example, the IRA. So, with their focus mainly on the political objectives, the landscape changed really following 9/11. That's when we really saw this rise in global jihadism movements with al-Qa’ida and Daesh becoming more prominent, which is where you look at where the terrorism landscape is now. 

Where you look at how they leverage things, it's more technology. They use social media, their ability to produce propaganda, to recruit people, to radicalise, to be able to coordinate attacks across borders, across the world. It's amazing the infrastructure that sits behind it and, you know, they're looking at where you'd have targeted actions to be taking place from people like the IRA. They'd want to go to location, they'd want to get away again. When looking at Islamist terrorism, that changed completely. They're looking at mass casualties, they're looking at softer targets, and they don't want to get away. So, it's had to change the way that counterterrorism has changed and our efforts have then had to intensify. And there's been, you know, significant successes you look at counterterrorism policing's website, on NPSA, on Security Service websites, and you'll see the work that goes ahead of dismantling those terrorist networks. But that threat is still there, and the challenge for us is to not let that breed complacency. You know, let's recognise what their successes are, but we've got to keep coordinating that effort just make sure we don't get another big spectacular or even smaller scale ones that are going to lead to loss of life.

Host - Oliver Hair

Exactly. I think your point there that the change in terrorism threat has also changed how CT in the UK conducts itself is a really interesting point. That opening question now hopefully sets us up for an interesting conversation around your current role and, similarly, and how terrorism and counter terrorism impacts day to day life at Wembley. 

So, could you begin by giving us a general overview of what your role is at Wembley, before giving a bit of insight into what mitigating terrorism threat at a high profile, iconic site like Wembley involves.

Guest - Steve McGrath

Yeah, and Wembley’s amazing place. You know, it's globally iconic. There's a saying that, you know, you can score at any stadium, you can play to any crowd, but it matters more at Wembley. And it's always that cliche, but there is nothing like seeing the smile on a child's face as they walk up Olympic Way and they approach the stadium…and seeing the absolute joy in the parents for the anticipation of taking their children to the stadium for the first time. You know, it's truly that magical place and it's…my role is to make that as safe and secure as possible. You know, there are many studies that you'll do with people that they say security is one of those things that when you approach a venue, you want to see it. You want to know it's there. You want to have that reassurance that you're going to be able to safely enjoy some of the best escapism that you can put together on the planet…because it is that kind of venue. So, that's what we're charged with. Then once you're in the venue, you don't necessarily want to know security is there, but if you look for them and you can see them and if you can get help when you want it…and again, when you're leaving, you want to see that it's there. 

And it's a complex place. Many people might not know that Wembley during the day, normal day-to-day…it's an office block. It's the headquarters of the FA. We've got a university campus on site. It's a conference venue. It's a banqueting hall. It's a tourist attraction. And that's just the day-to-day stuff. So, when you look at when it goes into event mode, you know, we're bringing in some of the UK and the world's biggest artists, the biggest teams. You know, people know us as a sporting event or a sporting venue – and football is one of the key things that we put together – but we do American football, we do boxing, we do wrestling, which is unusual. Multiple sports and you look back over the years, the stuff that's gone on there, everything from visits from the Pope to Evel Knievel…for those who can remember Evel Knievel…and even ski jumping. You know, in terms of multi-use venues, it really is off the scale. 

So, when you look at what Wembley does, it's very much a team effort. It's not purely down to me. You know, we've got a brilliant safety officer, Stuart Doyle, who looks after the events themselves who's the best, one of the best, in the world at what he does. And it's looking at that whole holistic view of security. For me, looking after the venue, I'll look at national, I'll look at international risks because it helps to really shape your understanding of what it is you're looking at trying to deal with. The ideologies, the methodology. Understanding really why people will want to try and cause you harm. And terrorism again, one of the many risks that you manage, but I like to try and keep things simple of just formulating how you're going to deal with particular issues. 

And it can be as simple as what, who, and how. So the what…what are you looking at trying to protect, identifying what your assets are, whether it's a crowded place, whether it's an individual, a very large rectangle of grass, the FA Cup? Then you can look at, well, who are you looking at trying to protect it from? So, who are those people that want to cause you harm? Whether it's terrorism, whether it's crime, it's protest, it's social media pranksters. And from that you'll start to form what their intention is and what their capability would be, which effectively is your definition and what your threat would be. And then you look at, well, how will they do it? So, it brings in the methodologies of how they would look to try and attack you. So it's…whether it's a Vehicle as a Weapon, Marauding Terrorist Attack, Improvised Explosive Devices. And then you can start to then look at building up those multiple layers, whether they're physical measures, active measures, and then of course the plans. So it's the whole readiness, response, recovery. Bringing in NPSA best practise, NaCTSO best practise where you can. And it's that whole thing…think like an adversary. How would you look to try and attack it, and then you can then find ways of testing your own plans.

Host - Oliver Hair

Sure, that's again, fascinating and, I don't think any surprise, that there are such a broad range of actors who, as you say, would have the intent or appetite to target Wembley.

You mentioned that Wembley day-to-day operates as an office block, a university campus, a conference venue and then went on to mention how the site transitions then into event mode, which our listeners are probably more familiar with. 

I was wondering if you could give some insight into how the diversity of your events programme at Wembley impact the diversity of the threat posed to the site. How do you account for both, on the one hand, such a variety in event types, and then on the other, the diversity of threats posed to them?

Guest - Steve McGrath

Well, when you look at Wembley, you put it into event mode and it's a 90,000 all seater capacity stadium, kind of larger if you do different types of concerts and just the way it's set up. So you're looking at an area that has got a population on an event day greater than some of the cities in the UK. Take Salisbury, for example, you know, more people will be in Wembley than live in the whole of Salisbury, which is just mind blowing. But everything is different, you know, every event is different, every show is different, every team is different. Even if you're just going on football, which brings a different dynamic and every event is individually risk assessed because we take all these things into account. You know, it may be that there’s controversy that surrounds a particular artist or the fan group that comes with them, or a particular type of disorder you'll have from them. So, it's all covered. You think, for example, over the last year we've done the UEFA Champions League, large police presence, horses, dogs, increased SIA and security stewarding. For some of the artists that we've had, you know, we've had probably the biggest artist in the world came in the last year. You have the same cops, you'll have the same stewards, you'll just have the same security but they'll deliver things in a completely different way. You may have, you know, a show of strength if you've got a particular crowd that is prone to disorder. And I'm, what I'm saying is, you know, the majority of crimes that come to the stadium, football, otherwise…the majority just want to come for a good time. There's always a small element that you're trying to sort of cover off for, so for that small element, you may have a stronger police presence or setting that tone differently. But then you have the same cops at the next event…they're handing out friendship bracelets and interacting with the crowd in a different way. 

It's all security and where you're looking at protecting some of those grey spaces, those areas that people could be watching what you're doing, then you know, the way the cops and the police officers and the stewards and security are interacting with people shows that they're being proactive. It shows that vigilance. It shows that being professional and being seen to be professional, so it brings that whole holistic approach together.

Host - Oliver Hair

Super, super interesting and an incredibly impressive feat, kind of, managing all of those different events and therefore the associated threat. I am going to ask you the potentially most cliched question in the security sector. Which is, is there anything in particular, Steve, that keeps you up at night at Wembley, whether that be from a kind of security management role or from the threats that are posed to your site?

Guest - Steve McGrath

I don't think you'd be surprised by my answer, but no, there's nothing that keeps me up at night. It's a team effort. There's a constant cycle of planning, reviewing, testing new scenarios, looking to protect and prepare the stadium and the surrounding area. You know, we've got 24-hour security teams that monitor the site for any potential hostile reconnaissance…you know, any bad people who are out there that may be thinking of causing us some harm.

And it's not just the stadium. For those who know the land that's around Wembley, there's the Wembley Park Estate. And we work hand-in-hand. We have a very close relationship with the Wembley Park Estate, with Quintain – who own Wembley Park Estate and that massive urban regeneration that they've got within that location. Brent Council are the local authority and Wembley Arena is on the footprint as well, which is one of the UKs best known concert venues. The London Designer Outlet, you know, there are 6000 people that live in and around that area. And I can't protect the stadium unless the outside of it is protected. And you look at Martyn’s Law coming up…the venue and the immediate vicinity and it's very much that team effort. So, we do it together and because we've got that overview, we've got those strong partnerships. We've got the support that comes from specialists, so we've got, you know, the Metropolitan Police provide the Project Servitor teams, which are great assets to be able to use. We've got the Counter Terrorism Security Advisors (CTSAs), again provided by the Metropolitan Police. The Counter Terrorism Security Coordinators who look at it from an event perspective. And being a CTSECO previously, it gives me the ability that I can have those conversations with them that we speak the same language. 

And it goes beyond that, you know, there are other bits and pieces that we can throw in. Our great friends in Pool Re, who have been up and provided me with a blast assessment, which gives me that great piece of information that I can make a risk based decision on. It gives me the chance to check and test and make sure that the assumptions that I've put in place and the mitigations that I've got will actually work in the circumstances. And through that, you know, there's a VSAT that you helped us with providing an identification of vulnerabilities, vulnerability surveys from the CTSAs, the SECOs reports that come through. We've worked with the National CBRN Centre to look at those risks…even getting in the military with UK special forces to test our processes, look for those gaps and see that we are able to plug them. 

So, in short, it doesn't keep me up at night because, generally, we've got a plan for it. And where I look ahead of any attacks that take place nationally or internationally, I'll consider the security stance we've got for the stadium. I'm comfortable with what we've got. There may be some tweaks and changes, just to put things in different places, or to do things slightly differently because of the individual risk assessment. But, you know, it's a great team. I mentioned the safety officer before…the external operations team we have…the relationships with Brent Council, Wembley Park Estate across the whole of the Estate. It just means that we've got that holistic approach to security…and that means I can sleep well.

Host - Oliver Hair

That's yeah, very, very good news, I suppose. 

I want to pick up on that answer because I think a running theme throughout it was the importance of relationships and coordination with not only those that are working directly at your site, but those around you. And a large part of that coordination must be training, awareness and education.

You mentioned at the beginning you are the Former Head of Information, Capability and Engagement at NaCTSO and are now also the joint chair of the Security Institute's Counter Terrorism Special Interest Group, alongside Andy Donaldson. 

A large part of both of those roles, I suppose, is providing education and awareness for those that are perhaps less cognizant of terrorism threat. But from your experience in those roles, how cognizant do you believe that businesses in general in the UK are of terrorism threat? And particularly not the major sites, but perhaps those smaller enterprises who perhaps think that terrorism only happens at kind of the Wembley’s or the Shards of the world.

Guest - Steve McGrath

No, it's an interesting question. And my wingman, Andy, who undoubtedly will be listening to this…hello, Andy…he'd probably give a similar sort of answer. Following 9/11, the London bombers of 7/7, Manchester Arena bombing, the subsequent inquiry that came in…I doubt that there's anyone in the UK that is not going to have an awareness of terrorism. So, it stands to reason that if people know about it, then businesses will have some knowledge or some understanding that sits around it. 

In my previous role at NACTSO, they're the UKs Operational Authority, the NPSA are the UKs Technical Authority. And they work very closely with the Homeland Security Group, part of the Home Office, and then all three of those organisation…they've gone into alliance with Pool Re. So, Pool Re are also part of that, as being part of the Treasury. But, all those organisations are looking at providing advice and guidance to protect the UK from terrorism and terrorist attacks. And through developing that advice and guidance, they do an awful lot of research. And through that research and lots of consultation groups of speaking to businesses…because, if you're going to put this advice and guidance together…terrorism is a small part of the risk that any security professional will manage, regardless of the size of the business. But terrorism is probably, in fact, from the research it tells us, it's not highest on the list of these organisations. What they see is that other things are more likely to happen. But when you're looking at trying to manage the risk, it's identifying what your threat is, identifying what the vulnerability is. It's looking at the likelihood of it happening. But important parts are going to be the severity and the impact. And it may not be your organisation that's directly impacted, but you could become impacted through another means. And as a great example, with the Fishmonger’s Hall attack that took place…which is a stone’s throw from here…Pool Re was within that cordoned off area, so the business was shut down because of something that happened elsewhere…that you're not directly affected, but indirectly you've become affected because of it. 

So, the likelihood of being involved in a terrorism offence, it may be really low. And, you know, that's down to the great work of the Security Services and policing that a number of these attacks, you know, we’re at 43 I think, have now been thwarted since 2017, which is brilliant. But we can’t have the complacency come in because the Director General told us in a speech in October that the threat is still there, and in fact it's rising. So, we have to be prepared that we're not in a position that we ignore it. 

So, when you're looking at businesses…businesses will be aware that Martyn’s law is coming. It was campaigned by Figen Murray, who’s a wonderful lady, great campaigner, and somebody that I'm honoured to say is a dear friend as well. She truly is an inspiration and it looks like we're going to be getting to that point where Martyn’s Law will become law in the very near future. Businesses are aware and they're cognizant of the fact of Martyn’s Law coming and see that there are requirements they need to put in place for terrorism. There are restrictions on that for the qualifying types of premises. But the question I'd sort of raise to businesses, is that you're all aware of health and safety and the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, which tells us that you have a duty to provide a safe place of work and that you, which is for you know, your staff and for your customers…businesses know about health and safety, and they put things in place to deal with reasonable risks, foreseeable risks. Terrorism is one of those foreseeable risks. You know the UK is at Substantial, so an attack is likely. So with it being likely, there's a chance that this is a foreseeable risk, so it is something you need to put in place. 

The challenge comes of getting businesses to fully understand and realise what it is they need to do and the work that's going in with the guidance documents around Martyn’s law is going to help take businesses through that gently. The legislation has a consequence that's attached to it. But there's no one within government that really wants to get to that consequence. It's more of a case of target hardening the UK so that it stands up to terrorism and says, “don't try it here, because we are ready. We're prepared. We won't tolerate it”. You know, this is supposed to be a country of togetherness. That's what we want to try and promote, so it will help businesses get to that point of which we have that readiness. But if you haven't got that, if something should happen because we can't stop it, you've got that response and recovery in place.

Host - Oliver Hair

Sure. No, that's super super interesting and it will be interesting to see what comes of Martin's law and what impact that has on business. 

That is obviously not at this stage law and therefore we can't kind of predict or say what the requirements will be with certainty. But I guess, while that legislation will arrive, businesses can be doing things now to help and mitigate that threat, and I had written down here your top three tips, but I think you've actually given a couple away in your previous answer, so perhaps I could ask you before Martin's law becomes law. What would be your kind of biggest tip or your top three to businesses seeking to mitigate terrorism threat at this time?

Guest - Steve McGrath

I think they would be…understand your risk; identify who is within your organisation that's responsible for mitigating security threats, of which terrorism is part of it. Get behind them and support them. A lot of your listeners for this are going to be security professionals or people within organisations where they have someone who's designated and have got a background in training and security that will know what to do in these circumstances. But there are lots of smaller and medium sized enterprises that are going to be caught up with this legislation and the requirements or maybe in an area that is going to be a little bit more vulnerable than others. And they may not have that background knowledge or have the training or expertise. So support them. You know, they're the ones that are going to be your critical friend. So, give them that support and help them to do what they're doing, to try protect your business. 

What I always found with working in NaCTSO and dealing with businesses is that if you want to motivate a business, it generally comes down to one of three things. It’s a legal requirement - if you don't do it, you go to prison. That's a really strong motivator. Next one comes down to money. So, how much is this going to cost me? But conversely, you're building a foundation that's going to have a secure business, so it's going to help it survive through a lot of adversity that will come that way. And if you concentrate on some of the terrorism risks, the big stuff, then it will help with a lot of the smaller stuff as well. So, when as much as you look at it as…will It cost me money? Will it actually save you money? Will it actually make your business stronger to thrive within the future? So, you can look at it in two ways. And then the last one comes down to reputation. Reputation is huge for organisations…of being that go to place, you know, and it helps cement your reputation. With Wembley, what words we use are “safety, security and service”. The place, the venue, needs to be safe. It needs to be secure. And the service that we deliver and the way that we deliver safety and security needs to be in a way that it maximises that experience. You know, we're looking at providing escapism, a world class venue, world class events, that ability that you can escape from the normal. So, it has to be at the heart of what we do. Gosh that’s only the first one! 

Next, I say record your plans. If it's not written down, it doesn't exist. Use national best practise as your guide. I've mentioned NaCTSO, I've mentioned NPSA, the stuff that they've got is amazing. Use ProtectUK. I know it's a little bit difficult to try and find stuff on there at the moment, but I know NaCTSO are doing a lot of work in the background to make that a much better system and provide you with all that advice and guidance that's going to be there. And with the advice and guidance you've got there, relying on that best practise. Academics can do studies into terrorism. The one thing they don't have access to is the investigations, the background intelligence that goes into it. The NPSA and NaCTSO do, and I know from having worked with them, there's massive amounts of research that goes into the background to understand in great depth how attacks have taken place, how the hostile reconnaissance is taken, how the information is gathered, how the precursor chemicals were obtained, or how they managed to get the materials used for it. How the attack planning took place. All of that goes into the advice and guidance they provide. So, by working to that advice and guidance, it's national best practise for a reason, because it's the best research you can get. There's lots of other good stuff, you know, Paul Martin's book about security. I use it as almost like a Bible, but it links into the other things that I do. So, use that best practise in formulating your plans. 

And then the last thing is going to be test and exercise. As much as you can think it through and you can write down what your plans are…until you actually talk it through, walk it through…so you tabletop exercise it or even live play. There will be different nuances for geography, location, building, that you wouldn't necessarily have encountered through your planning process. I always go back to that quote from Eisenhower of, you know, a plan rarely survives first contact. So, when you have that first contact, the plan's useless. But planning's essential because in that planning process those different nuances that you'll find when you get into putting things into practise, you'll generally find you've explored them as part of the planning process. So it's that. Get behind your person, identify who they are, recording your plans, and test and exercise just to make sure that they actually work.

Host - Oliver Hair

That's absolutely perfect. Three, top, top tips. And it's always very appreciated that we get guests like yourself coming onto the podcast and giving their words of wisdom. It is super, super helpful for the listeners and we've managed to squeeze in an absolutely huge amount of helpful information there. 

To finish off today’s episode, we always ask our guests a similar question at the end, just to see if there's any variety in perspective. But from your perspective, what do you believe to be currently the UKs biggest terrorism threat? And how do you believe that that threat is likely to change in, let's say, the next 5 to 10 years?

Guest - Steve McGrath

I think probably like most people, I'll say that I don't see Islamist terrorism reducing as the most dominant threat over that time period. I can see terrorism becoming a little bit more hidden. I mentioned previously that the Director General said that it's harder to identify, it's harder to detect. You've got the emergence…or a greater emergence of hostile states seeking economic advantage, looking at political positioning within that whole world order. Online disruptions using AI, cyber tactics, that will have financial impacts or cause embarrassment not only to governments or to other organisations…ultimately will give some sort of impact on a country. And I've heard talk about, you know, spreading chaos through social media. The way that people communicate now is very different and we all need to recognise that and use different ways… maybe like podcasts to reach people. And, you know, what better way of disrupting a country by causing chaos, by spreading through social media, disinformation that will get people to turn against governments. Now, there's all this sort of stuff, because when you look at what the definition of terrorism is, it mentions, it's an action that's designed to influence a government or intimidate the public. So, it's unlikely to move away from ultimately bad people doing bad things towards good people. So there’s still always going to be that possibility of those bigger impacts, those atrocities that we've seen, as well as those that are the easy to do, you know, al-Adnani said, strike the infidel where they are…use knives, cars, the simplistic things, those things that are at hand. Pick up a rock if that's all you have available…the simple tactics. 

The world, sadly, is socially in a bit of flux. There's a little bit of disconnect between people. There's not that feeling of togetherness across the world. World conflicts. People migration. And it can fuel some of those rises in different types of ideologies. Now, those are important to individuals, whether it's right wing, left wing, involuntary celibates, Islamic. And if this gap between people widens – and it could be that nationalism, religion, economic reasons –it can breed hatred and that can spread. So, really us as people, we can stop that. If we have greater togetherness, if we have greater tolerance, then shown by kindness and thoughtfulness, then we can stop it all from happening. So, communities will live together in harmony. But, we’re probably looking at utopia. But, I always like to look for what the best would be. Like many people, I didn't set out on the path to become a security professional. I went into policing because I wanted to help people. Sort of fallen into it because it's…I just happened to be good at it and I'm wired that way that I want to be able to help. But it'd be nice if there wasn't a need for me, and then I can go do something nice.

Host - Oliver Hair

That is a refreshingly optimistic outlook to that final question. It's not often that we kind of get a positive spin on the end of it, but again, we've managed within that answer alone just to cover a huge amount. And I think your point on kind of the online impacts and just that, that word chaos, seems to be hugely prevalent, and it's something that at Pool Re we're keeping an eye on. And as that diversity of threat changes, our old understandings of what terrorism is and looks like have become more and more complex. 

So, yeah. Thank you very much for that answer. But more importantly, Steve, thanks so much for taking time out of your busy schedule. I think you were on a webinar before this…so it's been a busy morning of being asked questions. So, thank you so much for appearing on Totally Terrorism.

Guest - Steve McGrath

No, thanks Ollie, and please keep doing the threat assessments. They're always great when they come through from Pool Re. I talked previously about the stuff we do across Wembley Park Estate. So, I do share it with them. You mentioned the webinars…Andy and I, we've got background knowledge and experience…we look to try and share that as much as possible and the products that you give us from Pool Re are always helpful. So, thank you, and say hi to everybody here at Pool Re for me.

Host - Oliver Hair

Will do. That's very kind, Steve. Thanks very much.