Sohail Ahmed - A Former Extremist's Story

Threat Analyst – Oliver Hair

Hello and welcome to Totally Terrorism, a Pool Re podcast. My name is Oliver Hair, a Threat Analyst at Pool Re. In this episode, we're joined by Sohail Ahmed, a former Islamist extremist and current advocate and public speaker in the counter extremism space.  

Sharing his incredibly brave and honest story, today I’ll be speaking to Sohail about his radicalisation journey, from his upbringing in East London to the point at which he considered carrying out a terrorist attack in the very same city. 

We’ll then explore how Sohail went on to deradicalize, and his own thoughts on the current state of Islamist terrorism and extremism in the UK.  

We hope you enjoy this episode of Totally Terrorism, and if you would like to hear future episodes, please subscribe through your streaming app of choice or sign up for our regular updates through poolre.co.uk/signup. 

Listeners may find some language and themes discussed in this episode upsetting.

Sohail Ahmed, welcome to Totally Terrorism.

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

Thank you ever so much.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

So Sohail, could we begin by giving the audience a short synopsis of your background, your current roles, and the key reasons why you're sat here speaking with me today?

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

So, in terms of my current roles, I'm a public speaker, a counter extremism advocate, occasional media commentator, and part of The Resilience in Unity Project, which is set up by a victim of terrorism and is also run by an expert in deradicalization, and we do work up and down the country sharing testimonies of victims of terrorism and testimonies of former extremists such as myself. And I'm also a former medical student, now turned combined Bachelors and Masters Physics degree student; medicine broadly. My interests are in psychology, neuroscience, AI engineering, politics, and naturally, security and also Islamic theology. 

And the way in which I got here is that I was raised as an Islamist and because of that, I have an insight into the extremist mindset and as a result, after having deradicalized, I realised the extent and the severity of the threat which led me to wanting to do active work in this counter extremism area. And I'm here to share my story in and out of extremism because I wish to raise awareness of the threat posed by Islamism so that policymakers, counter extremism practitioners, can understand the radicalization process and hopefully the extremist mindset to inform their work.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Absolutely. Thank you very much. And I think that's a perfect kind of intro to why you're here today and thank you so much for coming on, because I think it's an incredibly brave, but also fascinating story that you have. So, you mentioned there that you do consider yourself a former extremist, and I really want to kind of get into the whole story and the whole process, if that's ok. But if we could begin right at the start. So, perhaps with your childhood in the early stages of that radicalization journey, if we can call it that. Could you begin with where that process began and perhaps what drew you into that way of thinking?

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

Of course. So, my parents are originally from Pakistan and in my first six years of life, they were pretty much your bog standard kind of Muslims having come from Pakistan the majoritarian sect is known as Barelvism, and its relatively moderate. Not entirely moderate, but relatively moderate. And I was taught that to be a good Muslim means to be a good person. And that's the kind of background in which I was raised. I was exposed to Western ideas, I watched TV, I listened to music, etc. But then when I was around six or seven, my parents became exposed to a form of Islam known as Salafism. Now, that's a particular form of Islamism that falls within traditionalist Islam. I'll explain what all of that means later, but Salafism is traditionally the form of Islam that was founded in the Arabian Peninsula; so where Saudi Arabia is located now. And essentially, it was a guy called Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab who formed an alliance with the Saud family. Hence, Saudi Arabia. And the King agreed, “ok, I'll run this Kingdom and I'll support your theological views”, and his views on Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab’s views were very puritanical about trying to get back to the purest form of Islam, which I can get further into later on. 

But this form of Islam I was then exposed to, initially the kind of changes that happened in the home and in my immediate surroundings were relatively innocent. So, my father started growing a progressively longer beard. My mum started wearing the hijab; so the head covering and the full body covering, and then eventually the niqab, which covers the face as well, but only with the eyes visible. And then eventually, she even began wearing gloves and socks to cover her hands and feet. And I don't have an issue with feeling increasingly devout religiously, even though maybe I have some qualms about the niqab regarding women's rights, at least now I do. But I don't have a problem with individuals becoming more devout or more religious. The problem came after that, because I then began to be exposed to certain ideas that there's a never ending war between Muslims and non-Muslims; that non-Muslims are the enemies. And by the way, we didn't refer to them as non-Muslims. We referred to them as infidels or kuffar, which is a very pejorative term. And I was exposed to this idea called “Al-Wala’ wal-Bara’”, which means love and hatred for the sake of Allah, it means loving Muslims and hating the non-Muslims. I was taught that when the time is right, we will all fight violent jihad against the non-Muslims, rise up against them and reclaim our previous place in the world. I was told that literally Sharia is, or Islamic law, should be implemented. So I'm talking about people's heads being chopped off, stoning people to death, that sort of thing. That I was not British; that I was Muslim and Muslim only; that Britain was the enemy; that I was literally living in enemy territory and that I should never have non-Muslim friends and that I should hate all non-Muslims.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

It's fascinating. You've mentioned there, and I want to pick up on a few points you raised there, but I think to frame the conversation, it's probably important for our listeners and myself to fully understand the background of that belief and what people that follow that ideology believe. So, you mentioned your parents exposed you to Salafism and Islamism. And you mentioned what you were taught to know and how to understand the world and the people around you. But could we quickly just get a snapshot of Islamism and how that differs perhaps from Islam more generally?

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

Yes, yes. So, Islam is a very diverse religion and the way I kind of conceive of it, or conceptualise it, is that there's Islam; a subset of which is traditionalist Islam. So referring to the classical, kind of, the mediaeval era, so I'm talking about 700 AD to 1100 AD, the theological development that occurred in that era – that's the form of Islam that is known as traditionalism, or that I term as traditionalism. Within a subset of traditionalist Islam, is Islamism. 

Now, Islamism is based around four main concepts. There's the concept of the Ummah, which refers to the global Islamic polity or the collective of Muslims. It's almost like there's a metaphorical state of Muslims that doesn't exist at the moment, but it's like, you are supposed to feel connected with other Muslims, see them as your brothers and sisters, such that if any Muslim is hurt on the other side of the world, you personally feel that pain. And this concept of the Ummah, within Islamism, is very exclusionary. It divides the world into us versus them. And it's about, we superior people versus the non-Muslim inferior people. That's the way in which this concept is interpreted within Islamism. That leads on to actually establishing a state. So, the Caliphate, or the Khilāfah, or otherwise an Islamic Empire which Islamists believe should be established or reestablished, so that Muslims have this unified state that unifies all Muslim lands and is where Sharia, literally Sharia, a very narrow version of Sharia, is implemented. 

Now, this form of Sharia would be very draconian, very literalist, and essentially it would establish a theocracy. This leads on to the concept of jihad, because within the literary Sharia is proscribed this concept known as violent jihad, and it's both defensive, but within Islamism, also offensive. So, the idea is that through offensive jihad you then annex non-Muslim territories and then convert the people within those territories, perhaps not forcibly, but you convert them to Islam. But that the ones that don't convert to Islam, you treat them as second class citizens with little rights.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Absolutely, that's again, fascinating and thanks for what is a hugely complex issue. You've just summarised that in a matter of minutes. So, extremely impressive. If we, now knowing that, could go back to sort of the process and feeling of radicalization you mentioned you were first exposed to perhaps the more radical or extreme components of that ideology around the age of 6 or 7. Radicalization for those that have never experienced it, I've never experienced it personally, I think is unfathomable. I can't imagine what that actually feels like. Could you perhaps take us on a journey as you got older. So, you said you were first exposed when you were six, but throughout your kind of late childhood and early teenage years, perhaps how you began to believe these thoughts more and more and what that process and mindset feels like?

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

Absolutely. So, I'll go back to my personal development and my personal journey. So, before I kind of go into the further radicalization part, I'll mention the first doubt I ever had. Because I had been taught that I should never have non-Muslim friends, because as my parents said, “non-Muslims will never love you. They will never like you. They pretend to like you, but they actually hate you because you're Muslim”. In fact, I secretly had non-Muslim friends in school. And I knew for a fact, even as a 7 year old, that my non-Muslim friends genuinely liked me. That our relationship was true and genuine and real, that they actually cared for me. And that presented itself with the first experience of cognitive dissonance, and I thought, “Oh my God, there's this sacred thing that I've been taught, which is the ultimate truth, but it contradicts my experience. It contradicts reality”. And I responded to that by pushing that back to the darkest, deepest recesses of my mind. Now, it wasn't all positive, my experiences in school. So, I would later learn that I'm, actually only just a few years ago, I learned that I'm autistic, which I'll get back to later, but because of my autism, I was a pretty strange kid. Right? And, because of that strangeness, I was picked on. I was bullied quite severely, and again, that confirmed to me that there really is this us versus them thing going on. Additionally, because my parents were quite visibly quite fundamentalist, there was this kind of unspoken bias against me in which my teachers would treat me differently. And again, that confirmed to me really, they are against us. Now, it doesn't make sense to treat a child differently for who their parents are, because I never chose my parents right? But I also experienced kind of being called a “P***”, “go back to where you came from”, kind of Islamophobia, and again, all of this just reinforced my prior beliefs. 

Now, moving a little bit forward in time, when I was around 8 years old I realised that I was attracted to the same sex. And initially it was an innocent realisation, actually bizarrely, I thought everyone felt like that. I didn't know any better. But very quickly, within a few months, I learned that actually I was different. Not only that I was different, but what the punishment for what I was, homosexuality, was in my form of Islam, which was either execution, stoning you to death, throwing you off a high place, or throwing you off a high place, then stoning you to death just to make sure the job's done. And I remember the moment, just like it was yesterday, when I heard that in the mosque. With the imam describing what the punishment was. And I felt a chill go down my spine. 

And since that point forward, until I was, until I deradicalized, I'd lived my life in utter abject fear of being found out, of being harmed, of being disowned, or even being taken to Pakistan and then God knows what would happen. And this, it wasn't just fear. I hated myself. I felt disgust. I felt self-loathing. I believed that somehow I was possessed, or that God was punishing me because I was a bad person. And I internalised this self-hatred, and then kind of externalised it onto others. And that being non-Muslims. And I tried to fix this issue because I had to solve it, because I had to be a good Muslim. I had to be a very good Salafist. And, the ways in which, when I tried looking up the answer to this, and I started looking at the Islamic and theological kind of work that had been done on this, they either said get married to a girl or become more religious. Those were the two main solutions. And I couldn't get married to a girl; I was too young. So, I decided to become more religious and more devout. Now, in and of itself, I mean, forget the fact that I was trying to cure my sexuality, but in and of itself, becoming more devout and religious is not problematic. But given that the form of Islam that I followed to begin with was very extreme, in practise, that meant becoming even more extreme, bizarrely, as a consequence of my sexuality. 

Now, there's kind of two concepts at play here. Freud came up with this term called “reaction formation”, which refers to when you fuel an unwanted feeling or thought, you then react by doing the very opposite. So for instance, the famous example being, a closeted homosexual having unwanted same-sex attractions, and then responding by becoming a virulent homophobe. In my case, that was the case, that did happen, but it went further. It actually meant me becoming more embedded within that homophobic ideology I'd been raised with, becoming more extreme, more radicalised. And so the other concept is something called “social identity theory”, and through that lens you can understand it as me having this intrinsic identity, that of being gay, right? And then me trying to reconcile that with the idealised version of myself that was externally imposed by society, or my culture. That being a heterosexual, and to be part of the group, to feel like I belonged, I had to fix that; because being gay meant that I was no longer part of this group, and I needed that belonging. Now, this was an attempt to regain control as well, trying to cure my sexuality and all of this led to me just becoming even more extreme and even more radical.

Then comes 9/11. And this is, I'm ashamed on their behalf, but my parents celebrated 9/11, and actually, they weren't the only ones. And I remember my mum kind of giving out sweets and stuff in celebration and, not knowing any better, I celebrated it too, as deeply. I mean, I think I was, God knows how old I was, I think I was around...I'll calculate that later. And my parents said, “see, the non-Muslims have been hurting us, now we're hurting them. This is revenge”. And this would kind of play an important role in my further radicalization, as I would try to exact that same revenge following the Iraq and Afghanistan foreign policy decisions. Now, when you have a very extremist mindset, your view of the world is twisted. It doesn't concord with reality. So, in order for you, for you to reconcile reality with your belief system, you actually have to twist the real world to fit your ideology rather than changing your beliefs, your ideology, to fit the real world. And this takes the form of believing in insane conspiracy theories, like there's a global conspiracy against Islam to humiliate Muslims, to destroy Islam, to kill Muslims, or 9/11 was an inside job, it was done by the Jews, it was done by Israel, insane conspiracy theories. My dad used to listen to Alex Jones just to give you an idea of, I mean, they're still anti-vaxxers, and the whole lot, just pretty much anything. And, all the imams in the mosque, all the mosques I was attending, all of them being Salafist mosques in London, all said, “see, the never ending war between Muslims and non-Muslims we told you about…this is just the latest chapter in that. We were right”. 

So, as bizarre as it might sound, I believed it because it confirmed everything I'd been raised with before that point. Not only that, they said that they were there just to kill Muslims, just for the mere pleasure of killing Muslims, just for the mere pleasure of humiliating Muslims, of destroying Islam or bringing it a peg down in the world, if that makes sense. Now, I don't know what you think about those foreign policy decisions, in fact, it's frankly irrelevant whether you agree or you disagree. The very idea that the United Kingdom and the United States went into Iraq and Afghanistan simply for the mere pleasure of seeing Muslims die is utterly and absolutely insane. Yet, I believed it. Because it confirmed everything I'd been raised with before that point. This led to a lot of anger, a lot of hatred, and to add into all of this, I was seeing all the imagery coming in regarding the civilian casualties. All the reports that were coming in, the reports of human rights abuses and war crimes being perpetrated in Abu Ghraib, the prison. This led to me, kind of, becoming so enraged, so angry, so hateful, that I wanted to exact revenge in a very animalistic, violent, and tribalistic way. And I have to be blunt here, I can't, I can't sugarcoat this, I have to be honest. 

And given that I was in college at this point in time, I was surrounded by other extremists. To give you some context, when I was in school I was pretty much the only extremist there. But when I was in college, all my friends were extremists. That kind of emboldened me, In fact, I had a friend whom initially I radicalised actually. I introduced him to Salafism. I didn't tell him anything about terrorism. But he went off on his own and started reading Salafist jihadist stuff, jihadi Salafist stuff, and he would openly say in the prayer room, “we need another 9/11 in East London”. And in this kind of environment, in this milieu, I seriously began considering engaging in an act of violence in London; in my own home city. To be blunt, terrorism. And, saying that never ever gets easier. When I first was initially sharing my story, I'd almost break down crying at this point whenever I'd share it. Now it's kind of become a little easier, but it's, you can't just ever say, “yeah, I was going to consider terrorism”, and not be affected by that.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

It's incredible and thank you so much again for such a brave and honest story. There were a few points in there that I'd again like to pick up on because I think, that story alone has probably blown out of the water a few, if not many, misconceptions about what radicalization looks and feels like, but also perhaps the mindset behind it. I think a lot of people think that the radicalised extremist or terrorist is completely different to them, and an irrational, angry and always, I don't know, somewhat twisted individual. But instead there, it actually sounds like you were raised to believe something, perhaps wrong or very, very different, at least to the majority of people, but that it was framed almost through; A) personal grievance and an upbringing at school where you mentioned you were made to feel different, and you were made to feel like there were enemies around you or that you weren't accepted as everyone else was; so that's a personal grievance, outside of ideology, I think that anyone could have. But then you also mentioned how you've twisted your view of the world to fit your ideology, rather than ideology twisting people's view of the world, I think, if that makes sense. 

So basically, I'm asking could you unpack the fact that actually a lot of your thinking at the time, although based in this different worldview that was perhaps slightly twisted, it was rational thinking a lot of the time. It sounds like your view of the world was based in an upbringing that wasn't perfect, and you had personal grievances that made you see the world in a certain way, and then obviously the external events of foreign policy and the West’s role in the Middle East, a lot of these arguments I think are rational. Do you think that's fair to say?

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

I actually, within the framework of the belief system – but again my background is going to come out in this – in mathematics there are, it's based on what we call “fundamental axioms”. These are fundamental, kind of truths, that we assume, for instance, that if you have point A and point B and you join them together, the shortest way to do that is a straight line. Seems obvious, right? These sorts of things are fundamental axioms, and on top of that we build an entire mathematical system with all the complex mathematics that comes from that. Similarly, if we assume that the axiomatic beliefs are held, that there was a never ending war between Muslims and non-Muslims etc. It makes absolute complete rational sense for me to then want to exact revenge, to see it as my duty to exact revenge. And that's not in any way justifying or excusing terrorism. That's just kind of looking at it more philosophically, kind of seeing that, oh, if you assume that this belief system is true, then actually, the incredibly horrific, violent, dark impulses that come from that actually do make sense. And that's deeply troubling, right? 

Because it's easier to think that actually these people are just complete psychopaths. And by the way, some Islamists will be complete psychopaths. They will just be people that love violence and just want to hurt people. And they use the ideology as an excuse. But in my experience, most Islamists aren't like that, and that's the deeply, deeply uncomfortable truth. The kind of almost inconvenient truth about all of this. And I feel that so many lives are being destroyed. Wasted. They're not just destroying other people's lives, they're destroying their own lives. Because they've believed in falsehoods, and this is the point that I will get back to later, but bad information can make good people do bad things. And that's something I want to explore later on as well.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Yeah, absolutely. We can certainly get on to that. I think today it's a very topical piece of conversation that is linked to so many different events going on. We've spoken a lot about Islamism as the ideology, and about your radicalisation pathway, and the factors that kind of linked into that. I think it's fair to say when most people think of Islamist terrorism and extremism, for good reason or obvious reason, they likely think of Islamic State, ISIS, al Qaeda, 9/11. But, correct me if I'm wrong, but having done some research, you actually supported Hamas, or at least aligned with their, sort of, view of the world. And they are, ideologically, a very different organisation to the likes of Islamic State and al Qaeda. Could you perhaps quickly explain what Hamas believe in, but also why that resonated with you personally, rather than another kind of sect of Islamism.

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

So, I'll point out that when I was extreme, ISIS wasn't on the scene. But yes, I was a supporter of Hamas, as horrible as that is. But in terms of ISIS, they are Salafi jihadists, and they believe in a puritanical, exclusionary form of Islam that excludes even other Muslims. And it's based on something called Takfirism, in which they declare other Muslims that disagree with them as heretical, something that I believed in as well. And they very much have this “with us, or against us” mentality, and their goal is to establish a caliphate right now. 

Whereas Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. Now, to describe Hamas, I'll have to explain what the Muslim Brotherhood is. So, the Muslim Brotherhood was set up or founded by Hassan al-Banna, an Islamist in Egypt in 1928. It's a political organisation. In Arabic, it's called Jamā at al-Ikhwān al-Muslimūn. What kind of distinguished them from previous movements was that they believed in this concept called “tadarruj”, or gradualism. So, what they believed in is that you should pretend to believe in democracy, so that you get into power to destroy democracy. And whilst they’re a lot more adaptable because they're willing to engage with democracy and might, on the surface seem like it's a good thing, but it's far more insidious, and I believe that they're far more effective in what they do and their, kind of, conception, because it kind of also became not just a political group, but a theological way of thinking, they believed in unification of Muslims, and again, on the surface this sounds good because they were against sectarian divides. They believed Sunnis and Shias should unite; all the different sects should unite, but for the purpose of furthering the Islamist goal, of establishing an Islamic caliphate, and then essentially taking over the world. 

And so, they were more open to accepting disagreement. And when it comes to Hamas, this is why they're willing to work with Iran. So Hamas is Sunni. And so to explain, Muslims are pretty much divided into two large overarching sects, Sunnis and Shias. This comes from historical differences about who was the heir to the Prophet Mohammed and it was initially a political disagreement that over time evolved into theological differences, as these things often happen. And this is why Hamas is willing to work with Iran and Hezbollah, both of whom are essentially diametrically opposed to them in terms of sect. And they are more of a nationalist movement, but they couch it in terms of defensive jihad, as in not offensive that's global, but rather we're defending our Muslim land. And whilst they do believe in the caliphate, they're more concerned about establishing the caliphate later, whereas Islamic State wanted to establish the caliphate now. 

And, one thing I want to point out is that I think that over 50% of British Muslims do actually support Hamas. But, that should be interpreted in a cautionary manner because the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not believe that Hamas is a terrorist actor. They genuinely believe that all the stuff that's being said about them, and against them, is all lies. That's what we were all raised to believe; that it's all lies. It's all propaganda. You should support the people that are defending Palestine. So, it's seen as a way of supporting the Palestinian cause. So, I would caution against, kind of, seeing that many Muslims support Hamas and then coming to the conclusion that they necessarily support terrorism, although a very significant portion of them will. So, it's complicated, yeah.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Thank you. No, that's interesting. And I think it is super, super important for our audience to get a better idea of how Islamism in general is hugely complex. You cannot generalise, and groups differ from each other extraordinarily.

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

Even within Sunni Islam, so I'm talking about Salafism, and Salafism is the hot topic, but everyone ignores Deobandism, which is within the Indian subcontinent. Everyone ignores again Ikhwanism, which is the Muslim Brotherhood – they kind of make the mistake assuming that they're Salafist. But actually, whilst there is cross pollination between Salafists and Ikhwanis, the Ikhwani Muslim being the Muslim Brotherhood, actually within the Islamic theological discussion, Ikhwanis and Salafis are seen as distinct categories, and it's important to kind of see these distinctions.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I think that, again, sets us up really well for, I guess, what could be considered “part two” of your story and your experiences. So you mentioned extremely bravely and honestly that through your radicalisation, you actually got to a stage at which you were considering conducting an act of violence here in London. I suppose that is, other than committing that act, as radicalised almost as you can probably get. 

I'd now like to look at how perhaps you came down off that ledge and how you now speak so openly about your experiences, but also work actively to counter these malicious ideologies through information sharing and telling your own story. So, I suppose a broad question, take it as you would like, how did you come off that ledge, and how long did that process take? What were the steps you took yourself? It would be great to hear kind of what happened after you had had that thought – “I'm going to commit an act of violence”. What changed?

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

Sure. So, before I kind of describe all of that, I'll say this: Had you told me, when I was extreme, at the kind of the height, the pinnacle of my kind of radicalization journey, that one day I'd be sitting before you, on this podcast, speaking out against the ideology I'd been raised with, I would have thought you were utterly bonkers. Because I absolutely, with every fibre of my being, with every cell believed, not only believed, but knew that this was true. I didn't just believe, I was like, I know this is true. In fact, the other Islamists would come to me with their doubts and I would help dispel them. That's how sure I was about my ideology. Now, so even now I kind of look back at how extreme I was and even despite having gone through this journey, I can't fully wrap my head around the fact that I did change. It's almost miraculous, in a way. So, I did describe, so actually answering your question, I did explain my experience when 9/11 happened. What I didn't describe, is before I went to college, when 7/7 happened, what my reaction was then. I remember it again, just like it was yesterday. It was, kind of, the break time so we weren't in class. You were supposed to be in the playground or the library. And me being the bookish nerd, I was always in the library. The breaking news came out and the way I found out is because the teacher opened her classroom door and let the students in to watch the TV. And I remember standing in the middle of the classroom, staring at the TV as news of these coordinated bomb attacks were streaming in live. And I was just stood there, kind of frozen. Confused. Conflicted. Not knowing what to think or what to do. Because even though I'd been raised to support this kind of thing, suddenly this was at home. What if my friends had been caught up in that? What if my Muslim friends had been? What if my non-Muslim friends had been? How would I have felt? What if a member of the public I'd walked past whilst going to school one day had been caught up in that attack? Suddenly I felt very conflicted. Because it just felt wrong. To hurt so many people who had nothing to do with any of this. Deciding whether we should go to war or etc. And that was very much, a very…I didn't realise it at the time, but was a pivotal point that I would come back to when I actually began considering engaging in a similar act myself.

Now, as I was, kind of, in my mind mentally preparing for this, I had actually chosen a location, a method of attack. But I hadn't done anything physical. There was no kind of surveillance. I hadn't done any kind of travelling to look at it and, you know, find a location; specific location. But as I was thinking of it, it dawned on me, that actually people are going to die. It's going to sound weird, right? But, I was considering this attack and seeing it from a very, kind of, like bird in the sky view. As in, this is revenge against what's been done in Iraq and Afghanistan. Until I then started thinking about the individuals which I hadn't done before. See, when you are made an extremist, you dehumanise because it creates this in-out group dynamic that is so extreme that you only see the in-group as human and the out-group as almost subhuman. And you don't even see them as people. And, in that context, I hadn't thought about people dying. And then I thought about it, and viscerally thought about it. And I thought, “oh my God, this is wrong”. Suddenly my internal moral compass that had always been screaming at me, “this feels wrong. This feels wrong. This feels wrong”, suddenly kind of broke through and overrode all that, kind of, stuff I'd been raised with, the indoctrination, the very strongly held convictions that I had. It overrode all of that in almost as though you click your fingers and it was just done. And, then I had a crisis. And I thought, “ok”. I started searching for interpretations within Salafist Islam that were against terrorism, and I knew there existed some. So I was looking at all these interpretations and I found the argument against terrorism. 

Now, before I describe this, I want to point out that it doesn't argue that terrorism is morally wrong. It does not say that you're hurting innocent people, therefore you shouldn't do it. No, it uses a very technical, legalistic argument to argue against terrorism. It says that as a British citizen or an American citizen, or whatever else, you are in effect in a covenant with the British government, you have a legal agreement with them as a citizen saying that you are a citizen and that you will not attack that country. Therefore, as a Muslim you have to abide by that agreement. Now, that was all good for me to desist and to disengage from terrorism, at least. But the problem with arguments like that is, is that they're easily surmountable. Now, a guy called Anwar al-Awlaki, he was known in the community as “Triple A”. Actually, if you say “Triple A”, many people will recognise that and it's kind of like code for Anwar al-Awlaki. He actually preached at my mosque for a short period. So, obviously he was an American citizen, but he came to the UK to preach. And I had come across him as a young person, as a teenager, and eventually he became an al Qaeda operative and was their main, quote, unquote, theologian. And he argued that if you are a second generation immigrant, that you are born in the United Kingdom with British citizenship, that legal agreement has been thrust upon you without your consent. Therefore it is null and void. Therefore, engage in a terrorist attack. 

That's the problem with using these sorts of people, these groups, these interpretations, as kind of containment strategies, is that sometimes they will break through. Maybe in the temporary case, you do need to use it as a containment strategy to promote that, kind of, viewpoint, but that isn't a solution. There needs to be a much longer term solution and actually dealing with these problems on a more granular kind of fundamental level. Now, going back to my kind of deradicalization. So, I disengaged from terrorism and I then from this point forward began speaking out openly against terrorism. So, I came at loggerheads with my friend that I had previously radicalised and started arguing against him. And so I was a good counter-influence to that in the prayer room and in the Islamic Society and the community in college. But, I was still extreme in every other which way and a year after that, I began seriously having doubts about my entire ideology. So not just the terrorism, but everything. And, I mean, I'd always had qualms about things like slavery, because Salafists and generally Islamists, do believe that slavery is, legal, Islamically legal in Islam. And this isn't the view of most Muslims, by the way, but it is of Salafis. And that just felt wrong to me. How can a human own another human? How would I feel if I was owned by someone and had no freedom? Just fundamentally, you can tell that rationally it makes no sense, and morally it makes no sense, and emotionally it makes no sense. But I pushed these doubts to the back of my mind, and suddenly all of these doubts were starting to come out into the open. And for five years after that, I tried to keep these doubts at bay. But these doubts got to such a point that I began questioning Islam itself. 

So, for five years I was in this strange kind of, I was almost in purgatory where simultaneously I was questioning Islam, but at the same time I was sure I'd burn in hell forever for questioning Islam. And this led to extreme depression, severe depression, because I genuinely felt that I was burning in hell forever. I mean, if you actually believe that, of course you're going to be depressed. But after that five year period, I thought, you know what, I just can't handle this anymore. I have to deal with my doubts head on. And this is going to sound strange, but how did I deal with my doubts head on? To give you some context, before I describe this, I was always the science wizz in school. No matter what school I went to, I would always be top in science class. And in GCSE science, in I think all but one exam, and I think there were like 8 exams for science, I got 100% in every single one apart from one which was still an A*. So I really loved science, right? And I was really academically capable, which will lead me on to the point that actually, I clearly had a good brain, yet I believed in the most insane, ridiculous things. I'll get on to that later, but I was always this science wizz and I understood the scientific method and knew how it worked and it always was a problem for me. It always annoyed me that I was a creationist because, again, Salafists are literalists, that I rejected evolution, but that pretty much every single evolutionary biologist agreed that evolution was true. So how could I confirm or deny my worldview? I could go to science, because that's something I can actually verify, externally, external to my religious belief system with actual fact, again, scientifically minded. So, I looked at evolution, both the arguments for, against, the counter arguments, the counter counter-arguments. I looked at everything. Within two days, I realised immediately that evolution was true. We all evolved from the single common ancestor. That there was no doubt about it. That I'd actually been an idiot for most of my life. And suddenly I was dealt with three options. One; change the form of Islam that I believed in so that it reconciled with evolution. Two; reject Islam altogether. Three; just ignore that I'd learned that evolution was true. Just ignore it. And I started then looking at interpretations within Islam that argued for compatibility with evolution and the Quran. 

Now this is where it's going to get interesting. One of the imams at my mosque that radicalised me, a few years prior to my own deradicalization, came out himself publicly in the mosque and said, “I believe in evolution”. His name was Osama Hassan. He now works at the Tony Blair Institute and he was someone I admired greatly. He was both an Islamic theologian, very religious, just like me, but also had studied astrophysics at Cambridge. So he was very much a scientist too, just like me. And I felt like I had a lot in common with him. And he'd publicly come out and said, “I believe in evolution”. By the way, the congregation attempted to attack him right there and then. His own father, the main imam, had to stand between him and the congregation and say, “if you have to, if you want to go get to my son, you have to go through me first”. And he then, after that, he had to have police protection for a long while. So I started…him kind of coming out publicly had already opened the door for evolution for me. So, I started looking at his work. And I read through his blog and I started reading his theological work and his interpretive work, and I realised, actually, it is compatible. So now I realised that my form of Islam, Salafism…because at this stage, having believed in evolution, according to other Salafis, I was no longer a Muslim. I was outside the fold of Islam because, according to them, I was contradicting the Quran. So now I had to find another form of Islam. And that opened the door for all my extremist beliefs to kind of one-by-one, fall, like dominoes falling. And I started questioning the whole slavery, sexual slavery. I started questioning jihad. I started questioning, rejecting democracy. I started questioning…interestingly the last thing I questioned was my…was homosexuality. And I read a whole book on it. And I realised, actually, you can be gay and be Muslim, which is interesting because I'd been raised with Salafi Islam, Literalism, so to be convinced that actually you can be gay and be Muslim, to me, that argument, the arguments were watertight, and that's why I'm a big proponent of Islamic reform, because I believe it actually does make sense. And just like that, I had deradicalized. 

And, kind of coming out the other end of all of this, I, for a year, I was a progressive, out to myself, happy, gay, progressive, liberal, Muslim. And when I say liberal Muslim, I mean in every single sense. I was British, I was Western in thought, behaviour, everything. I believed in democracy, women's rights, gay rights, human rights, absolutely everything. I felt British for the first time, I felt British. Interestingly, over time, as my deradicalization process had taken place, I started feeling more and more British. And in the end, my kind of very strong Islamist exclusionary, diametrically opposed us versus them, identitarian, kind of, community sense of belonging thing, that was replaced with a strong sense of belonging with the British community. And that's one of the reasons why, and I'll get on to this later as well, one of the solutions I believe is to promote a strong sense of British identity that is open and inclusive because in my case that was kind of like a replacement for the community aspect. 

And yeah, that is how I deradicalized. Now, the last thing I want to mention is that, you know how there's a common, a continuous thread that connects you as a child to your current self? You feel like you're the same person. Continuous thread of consciousness. For me, that thread is broken. There's a schism. It's divided. It's cut. When I look back at my old self, I don't recognise that person. Fundamentally, that person just doesn't feel like me. So my sense of self, in a way, is broken. And it's a really bizarre, I don't know how to describe it fully, but it feels like rationally, you know it's you, but you don't feel it's you. And that's a really bizarre state to be in.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Wow, that's extremely powerful that, as you say, there's that schism, and I don't think anyone listening, unless they've been through it, will ever truly be able to understand that process from start to finish and it does sound like it's a continuing journey in terms of understanding and the work you do now, to kind of understand other people's stories and better understand how you yourself became radicalised, is extremely interesting.

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

One thing I hadn't mentioned, I didn't answer one of your previous questions. It just occurred to me, you asked me how it subjectively feels to be radical, I hope it's ok for me to answer that now?

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Absolutely.

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

And, imagine being lost, right? And then suddenly being handed a map to a world that is hard to understand; that is shrouded in fog and darkness. Suddenly, you're given a map…suddenly everything is clear to you. All the paths, where the land masses are, where the borders are, and on this map you see two land masses divided by an unsurmountable, untraversable sea. The land your on is the land of your in-group, of Muslims, of Islamists. And the other land is the land of the Kafar, the infidels, the non-Muslims, or the heretical Muslims. And, this map becomes a reality to you. And you don't just believe in this new world that you've been handed and mapped to, both ideologically and physically, you know it with certainty. It almost leads to a high. It's like you have access to this knowledge that no one else has, which leads on to a superiority complex that you know the truth and everyone else is too stupid to understand it. And it imbues you with a sense of the world and a higher purpose and a very strong community, a, kind of like a camaraderie between people who are in the know who have this truth. It feels like you're one of the chosen ones, right? You're chosen to have access to this truth, to be a warrior of God. And it's a very intoxicating feeling, feeling that you're right about everything. That you have God on your side. And everything is seen through the lens of out-group hostility, meaning that everything your out-group does, so non-Muslims in this case, any slight, any perceived slight, is interpreted through the lens of racism, Islamophobia, bigotry. 

So, whilst in my case there was actual Islamophobia and actual racism, there were many things that I'd see that were actually innocent, which now in retrospect I realised they were innocent, but I would interpret them, oh they're doing it because they're racist. They're doing it because they hate Muslims. So, you start seeing things where there are none. Yeah, and it's like you're trapped in your own mind. You're trapped in your thoughts. Where any doubt is an existential threat to you because your ideology becomes you. It becomes your identity and if you were to question it, it would feel like falling through an infinite abyss. It would feel like you literally died. And there's this extreme fear of hell, that by questioning the ultimate truth, you will burn in hell forever. This leads to a state of hyper vigilance against doubt. Where you feel this cognitive dissonance regarding any doubts that you have. And that leads to extreme guilt, shame and distress which then leads to you becoming even more extreme to try to counteract that. So, for instance, a lot of Islamists actually do enjoy the West and do enjoy Western values. They hate that, that leads to cognitive dissonance, and as a consequence, they become more extreme. And it just distorts everything you see. 

Again, you have to bend reality to your belief system. And any opposing perspectives are seen as like anathema. It's literally from Satan. It's from, you know, it's pure evil. So you already…you avoid any criticism, any opposing view. And because of that, you just stay in your own kind of ideological silo. Not only that, but any association with outsiders is discouraged. So, in my case, don't have non-Muslim friends. That closes the door for critique. Therefore, it's a cult, essentially like the Westboro Baptist Church or even Scientology. That closes the door purposefully to any outside critique or questioning. And on the one hand, it feels extremely empowering like you've got the ultimate truth, and you feel this high. But deep down inside, it's extremely distressing. Because you do have those doubts, you know, even if you don't admit it to yourself. And that leads to a constant state of cognitive distress.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Perfect, thank you again so much. You manage to explain some incredibly complex things and make them make sense, at least to me. I would like to ask, I think two final questions and thank you so much for letting us into kind of your upbringing, your story, and how you've changed and the work you do now, I think that is absolutely fascinating and definitely extremely moving.

I think now if we could perhaps step away from your story personally and look at terrorism threat, extremism in the UK and abroad, more generally, and using your expertise and your own understanding, I've got two questions mainly that I would like to ask you. 

So, we're recording this in November 2024, so just over a year since the horrific events of October 7th in Israel. And we are still very much in what feels like an interminable conflict in the Middle East. What are your thoughts based, again on your own experience, of how the attacks of that day and the resultant crisis and conflict throughout the Middle East have changed, or perhaps will change in the future, terrorism threat here in the UK?

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

So, in order to answer that question, I have to describe some of the history. So, in order for us to try to predict what will happen after these horrific events, both on October 7th and then the following unfortunate conflict and the immense civilian casualties that have come about from that, it's important to look at history, to look at similar examples, and then kind of extrapolate. 

And, I’d use the following two examples. So, the Bosnian conflict in the 90s, so from 92’ to 95’ I believe, and the subsequent Bosnian genocide of Bosnian Muslims. This, the perceived, kind of, abandonment by the West of Bosnian Muslims actually radicalised a lot of people and, kind of, caused almost the first wave of radicalization, especially in Europe, especially in the United Kingdom. And my parents were pretty much a consequence of the first wave. And this wave of radicalisation, which by the way they became radicalised because the West didn't intervene soon enough, which would contrast with what happened later, because they would become radicalised because the West did intervene in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

So, what they would do is that people from Hizb ut-Tahrir and other groups, al-Muhajiroun, and al-Muhajiroun was set up much later, but I'm talking about the people that thought like that. They would have video recordings, and there was a genocide going on, so you can imagine the most graphic, gruesome stuff is happening. And, they'd make people watch it. And they'd go after you'd watched it, you'd be incredibly distressed. They’d g, what are you doing to stop this? Your brothers and sisters are being killed. You're doing nothing. So they'd shame them into actually joining global jihad. And this is what radicalised many people at the time, and this had a very long, kind of, long term effect because it led to a sustained level of radicalization. As more people became radicalised, it led to social contagion, and then more people would become radicalised and so forth. Going forward in time, and then when 9/11 happened and the subsequent kind of rise in Islamophobia and then the foreign interventions, this led to, again, a sustained after-effect which then led to kind of Al Qaeda developing in certain ways, and eventually ISIS, and other groups. 

And so that radicalised, for me, I was that second wave of radicalization, I was part of that wave. And then there was, you could describe almost a third wave, but it's kind of debatable. I'm kind of debating with myself whether it is, but the Arab Spring and the subsequent kind of, especially in Syria, the civil war, that could also be seen as a kind of almost mini-instigator for radicalization. In fact, it certainly did, it led to a lot of foreign fighters. In each of these cases, both Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, we'd have foreign jihadists going there and then returning, and every time the threat landscape, the terror landscape would evolve. 

Similarly, I think that the severity and the extent, or the gravity, of what's happening in the Middle East right now is going to have indelible effects in the medium to long term in terms of the evolving threat landscape. Now, how is that going to happen? It's going to create a narrative that look, “the West is complicit in”…as they will describe it…“the genocide of Palestinians by Israel”. And again with, there are reasons, theological and historical why often Muslims are pitted against Jewish people and personally, it's again, I'm ashamed to say, but I didn't like Jewish people and the way that changed was actually by interacting with Jewish people in real life as an extremist. And then my views softened. But coming back to this, it's going to create the us versus them mentality. It's going to entrench that. It's going to create a lot of anger. It's going to be weaponized. Already, we're all having streamed onto our mobile devices the utter, gruesome and severe kind of consequences of the war. And especially in urban conflict, there's going to be immense civilian casualties and severe civilian casualties. 

And even recently, the Director General of MI5 Ken McCallum did mention the evolving nature of the threats. He said that it was amplified by online spaces, both in terms of the far right. And by the way, the radicalization of Islamists is going to spur the radicalization of the far right. Definitely. That happened when Anjem Chowdhury and al-Muhajiroun burnt those poppies when the soldiers were returning from, I believe, Afghanistan. Or was it Iraq? That led to the creation of the EDL and often the far right is often reactionary, especially the modern far right. I mean, there is the old-school far right as well, like National Front, and actual Neo Nazis, but I'm talking about the modern kind of anti-Islam far right. They're often reactionary to the Islamists. But then the reaction leads to an increase in the radicalization of the Islamists, which leads to the increase in the radicalization of the far right. And it's a horrible feed forward cycle. And so, they're going to use the images to kind of radicalise vulnerable individuals. 

But also, I think the threat landscape is going to almost diversify because this conflict involves also Hezbollah and Iranian proxies. And according to, I believe a 2024 annual threat assessment by the United States, they actually pointed out that Iran and its proxies are actually establishing their abilities and influence in Europe. So I can potentially see, envisage, pretty much for the first time, Shiite terror attacks in Europe, potentially as retribution for perceived western support of Israel. And yeah, I think that previously past events have led to sustained levels of radicalization, and I think that this will probably do that too. And I know that Iran and their proxies are also big on cyber operations and cyber terrorism, so that's going to diversify the risk too.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Perfect, thank you so much. I think you've managed to cover an awful lot there and unfortunately I think we are perhaps going to have to draw this to a close. It's been absolutely fascinating and it's almost worthy of a “Part 2” I think, if we can. 

But Sohail, thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for being so honest and brave to tell your story. It's not often that you get to hear that side of the story and it's, I think going to be incredibly useful to both us at Pool Re, and our work, and our analysis to understand the sort of thought process that goes behind these ideologies, but also extremely useful and engaging for listeners and the public more broadly to understand that the people that are spoken about in the news as extremists and terrorists are actually, a lot of the time, just like you and me, they just see the world in a very different way, they're brought up believing different things and are affected by events externally in much a different way to others.

So, I think that has been extremely, extremely fascinating and extremely brave. So, Sohail Ahmed, thank you so much for appearing on the podcast.

Guest Expert - Sohail Ahmed

Thank you so much. It was my honour.

Threat Analyst - Oliver Hair

Thank you very much.

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