Mary Harper - Three Decades on the Frontlines of Extremism in Africa

Host - Felix 

Hello and welcome to Totally Terrorism, a Pool Re podcast. My name is Felix, Senior Threat Analyst at Pool Re.  

In this episode, we're joined by Mary Harper, journalist, author and expert on the Horn of Africa. Mary was until recently the BBC’s Africa Editor. She now works with the United Nations and continues to report on Africa. 

Mary has reported extensively on the Somali Islamist movement, Al Shabaab, and other insurgent groups on the continent. 

She is the author of the books Getting Somalia Wrong: Faith, War and Hope in a Shattered State and Everything You have Told Me is True: The Many Faces of Al Shabaab.

Today, we’ll explore what life is like under Al Shabaab, how terrorism has evolved throughout Africa, and what this all means for the UK.

Mary Harper, welcome to Totally Terrorism - could you start by giving us a bit of background about yourself, your work, and how this has brought you into contact with terrorist groups?

Guest - Mary Harper

I worked for the BBC for several decades. I'm always reporting on Africa and when I first started in the early 1990s an Islamist party won elections in Algeria, which they were then forbidden from taking power, and that led to a very vicious Islamist insurgency and that kind of got me very interested in the subject. And then over the three decades that I was reporting on Africa, you saw across the continent, various groups emerging. I was in Sudan in 1996 when Osama bin Laden was there and Africa, some African countries, have a very, very long history of having Islamist leanings or groups of people who are very Islamist. For example Somalia, which is the place I'm most focused on, has a very, very long history of that. It's nothing new. So I sort of watched all these things happening and reported on them. 

When it came to Somalia, in addition to reporting on it as a journalist, one day I was actually walking in Covent Garden near the BBC where I used to work and I got a phone call from a number I didn't recognise. And when I picked it up, the person said his name, which I'm not going to tell you, and he said he was from Al Shabaab and he wanted to talk to me. So, as any good journalist does, I took his name, I took his number, I said thank you very much, I'll call you back. And then I called some very, very trusted people in Somalia and they said yes, that is a senior person in Al Shabaab, and that's his number. So, the sort of more intimate relationship happened like that. It was very, very surreal. 

And then I think because I'm a journalist who has really specialised on Somalia for a long time, Al Shabaab, I mean, number one, they obviously wanted their voice to get out there and I was obviously a good person. At the same time as a journalist, I was always very, very careful, and it was extremely useful to have that direct contact. At the same time, I was always aware that I mustn't be manipulated by them, I mustn't give them, just because I’m talking to them, I mustn’t give them any special treatment and as a BBC journalist in particular, you treat everyone the same whether they're a president…at the BBC we weren't allowed to call people terrorists, and I think that's completely right, or a beggar on the street. So everybody is worth the same thing. At the same time, it was very, very valuable for me to have that line and those lines that developed with Al Shabaab. For example, when they attacked the Westgate Mall in Kenya or they carried out other attacks, they'd often call me, which was pretty horrible. But at the same time it was a trusted source. So I could report that very, very immediately.

Host - Felix 

That's fascinating. So, talking about Al Shabaab, and you've reported a lot on the group, would you mind giving us an outline of who they are and their wider links to al-Qa’ida and the threat that they pose?

Guest - Mary Harper

Yes, it was interesting and I wrote my first book, kind of prompted by this, because, umm, Somalia had been in a state of conflict – it still is in a state, a state of conflict – since the late 1980s. So, it's been decades and there was a brief period in the mid-2000s, when a group of Sharia courts got together and managed to, kind of, chase out these warlords who'd been holding sway over Somalia in a very brutal way for years, and it was a kind of a miracle. It's important not to idealise…I think a lot of people have idealised this period of only six months when the Islamic Courts Union took control of some parts of Somalia. But people I spoke to said, you know, for the first time I can actually just walk down the streets and not be afraid of random gunfire or mortars being lobbed at me or anything. So, there was change. Then, the United States in particular, and one of its major allies in the region, which is Somalia's long time, and I would say permanent enemy, Ethiopia…they got together and they basically said that this group, the Islamic Courts Union, was an al-Q’aida linked group. It was very dangerous. So the Ethiopians, backed by the US, launched a massive invasion at the end of 2006 and they beat out the Islamic Courts. Some of them went to Eritrea, the others who stayed behind – the real hardliners – they then developed into a far more effective Al Shabaab. So, Al Shabaab, it didn't happen immediately, but that was what gave rise to the group. 

And then over time it's gone through lots of incarnations. Some of the Emirs – the leaders – have said…like one of them said, “oh, we're going to take the jihad all the way to Alaska”, or at least we're going to have caliphate that's not just in the, sort of, northeastern part of Africa, but across in the Arabian Peninsula, Yemen, etc. And then, others are much more nationalistic. So it has lots and lots and lots of different incarnations. Currently it's described as al-Qa’idas most successful affiliate. It's endured now for years and years…I mean nearly 20 years. And it has established an effective form of alternative government and Al Shabaab always says to me, they say, actually we are the, kind of, more legitimate government of Somalia. Some people describe it as a shadow government, but they do provide services that other authorities in Somalia don't provide, but they're also extremely draconian and brutal.

Host - Felix 

And what does the group look like today? So, you said that they control a bit of territory in Somalia, but are they…when you talk about services, are they providing healthcare? Are they providing government? Or are they just sort of there to launch attacks in Somalia or elsewhere?

Guest - Mary Harper

They still control significant amounts of territory in Somalia, especially in the South. The government has launched offensives against Al Shabaab, which in the last few years were relatively effective in chasing them out. Especially after a clan militia called the Ma’awisley – which is the name of the sarongs that Somalis wear, the traditional sarongs that they wear, and they fight in those sarongs. I don't quite know how, but you see them running about, you know, firing weapons and things wearing sarongs – and that proved quite effective in chasing Al Shabaab out of certain areas. The problem is…number one; holding territory…which, there are not enough resources to do…plus; unless whoever it is who's chased Al Shabaab away – the government or regional government or clan militias, or a combination of all of them – unless they can provide something better and more predictable than what Al Shabaab provided, they're not going to be able to hold that territory. They're not going to gain the trust of the population. So, then the offensive stalled, and then just in the last few days, a new offensive has been announced…has been launched, but how far that's going to go is very difficult to say.

In terms of the services Al Shabaab provides, in the areas which it has strong control, it provides education, healthcare, irrigation, it builds bridges, etc. And it's always, you know, it's not like it provides wonderful services, but it does provide services that at least it's something for the people who live there. Even if they don't like Al Shabaab, they can send their children to school, even if it's a school that's going to indoctrinate their children. They also provide, for example, very effective legal services and they have mobile courts. I know lots of people in the capital, Mogadishu – which is ostensibly controlled by the federal government – who use Al Shabaab courts. They say they're less corrupt. And they say that when Al Shabab makes a ruling, people abide by the ruling because they're afraid of Al Shabaab and also because they kind of trust Al Shabaab as a, sort of, more…even if it's a judiciary that's not exactly something that a lot of other people would recognise or think should even be allowed, it does work quite well. They're also phenomenal tax collectors, so they collect large amounts of tax. Some people say they're actually one of al-Qa’ida's main funders…that they're now exporting funds, rather than importing funds from al-Qa’ida central, whatever that might be. And I've even seen people in the UK, Somalis, who are taxed by Al Shabaab, and Al Shabaab provides written receipts, which they then send to the people. And the reason people pay those taxes, even, for example in the UK, is because they have family and clan members at home who they know will be attacked if they don't pay the tax. So, some people describe it as extortion. 

At the same time, Al Shabaab does provide services, for example, hotels in Mogadishu. A lot of them pay significant taxes to Al Shabaab. They also have to pay the government taxes now, so they get annoyed because they have to pay double taxes. But if they do that, Al Shabaab secures them. Al Shabaab won’t attack them and Al Shabaab sort of guarantees their security in a more effective way than the government does, even in areas that the government controls. So, people do get something in return.

Host - Felix 

That's fascinating, but, I suppose my question would be what's the flip side of that is as well? Because obviously you said that they have quite a draconian form of governance. They also launch attacks in Somalia and elsewhere. And I suppose a lot of the reason people abide by the rulings is because they are afraid of, sort of, their secret police and their intelligence services and their families being attacked. Could you talk a little bit about that and how they maintain control, and some of those things that we would describe as sort of terrorist organisation’s kind of MO?

Guest - Mary Harper

Absolutely. And I don't want to…I mean now I've sort of spoken about the more positive things that Al Shabaab provides to people. At the same time, Al Shabaab is, you know…you know you have to behave in a certain way. And if you don't, you are at risk of being killed or stoned or have a limb amputated, or otherwise punished. You know, people aren't allowed to play music. There was a time when even certain ringtones on mobile phones were banned. In lots of areas, they don't have access to the internet, you know, their lives are very restricted. Women in particular have to cover themselves more extremely in Al Shabaab areas. So people have, you know, they have to live a life that is extremely rule abiding and restricting, and it is not like the traditional Somali way of life, which is full of culture, poetry, song, a lot of freedom of expression. So they are crushed, and they are fearful of Al Shabaab, no doubt about that. 

So, I sometimes think to myself…why does Al Shabaab, or any other group like Al Shabaab…why did they want to live like that? Because apart from anything else, it just must be extremely dull because it's almost like anything that's to do with culture or fun is just not allowed. And so people…they are afraid of Al Shabaab and the reason…one of the reasons why they abide by those rules, of course, is fear. It's also that they know if they behave, they will have at least a life, unless there's an attack, that is, at least, relatively predictable, even if it's pretty unpleasant. In areas, for example, Mogadishu, or other places that are controlled ostensibly by the government or regional forces with backing from various international forces as well, both African and beyond Africa, people there, the civilian population, even though Al Shabaab says it doesn't deliberately attack civilians, they are at risk every single day of being caught up in an Al Shabaab attack. Or in a more mundane way, because now I work with journalists in Mogadishu, I've set up a media house in Mogadishu now, and quite often they call and they just say I can't get to work today because the government's shut the whole city down because either there's been an attack or there's rumours that there's going to be an attack. 

And so many people I know…I've lost a lot of friends and associates in Somalia. I also have a lot of friends who have scars on their bodies and, you know, over time they'll tell you, “oh, this was when Al Shabaab blew something up and a piece of shrapnel hit me”. One of my best friends there, who used to work for the BBC, Moalimuu Muhammad, who's now an MP, he's been caught up in five suicide attacks. And his face is scarred, his body is scarred. And so people are touched by things like that very, very often. And, for example, the journalists I work with now, a couple of them at the weekends, they go to the beach now. They love going to the beach and recently Al Shabaab staged a complex attack and they stormed the beach and they attacked a hotel, but they also killed dozens of civilians. And those two journalists who were there just enjoying themselves, they left 20 minutes before. And you just think, like, that is what people's lives are like. 

So, it is a kind of permanently terrifying/stressful situation and people who live there are very nervous. They're quick to respond to things like if a door slams. They get very nervous. Whereas I'm just really, really, calm and they're like “Mary, why are you so calm?” And I say, “it's just the door”. But, they're very on edge all the time and it does make people quite aggressive. It makes people…they respond to things in…in a way that is quite different than people who don't live in that environment. And it's very sad, and it's been going on, I mean, they've been living in conflict for such a long time. It's multi-generational now.

Host - Felix 

And you mentioned lots of attacks within Somalia, but Al Shabaab are also famous for conducting attacks, particularly in East Africa, in Kenya, Uganda, and elsewhere. Could you talk a little bit about that as well, please?

Guest - Mary Harper

Sure. I mean Al Shabaab…its depended slightly on its kind of outlook and whether it wants to be more international. It sees as legitimate targets all the African countries that contribute troops to the African Intervention Force. I don't call it a peacekeeping force, because there's no peace to keep, and they haven't established peace. So, for example, Uganda has been attacked. Kenya has been attacked. Djibouti has been attacked. Recently, the one place that Al Shabaab wanted to attack for so long was Ethiopia, and they managed when Ethiopia itself, sort of, started to deteriorate and has gone through a period of in internal collapse. Al Shabaab got 150 kilometres inside Ethiopia. 

They say to me, like when they speak to me, they say, “oh, you know, the reason why we attack those countries are not just military installations there, but also the civilians…is because those countries are fighting us, and so every single person in that country is a legitimate target because the population elected the government that has gone to war with us”. So, it's a very, sort of, cruel logic that they employ to justify why they stop a minibus full of teachers and slit their throats. But that's the answer they give me…is that, well, they voted for the Kenyan government, so they’re legitimate targets.

Host - Felix 

So, we've talked a lot about Al Shabaab, and while that group is incredibly lethal, they're by no means the only terrorist group operating in Africa. I was wondering if we could zoom out, particularly looking at West Africa and the Sahel, where we've seen an uptick in attacks by groups such as Boko Haram, JNIM, and others. Can you tell us a little about what's happening in these regions? And what's causing this…this uptick in, particularly, Islamist extremist activity?

Guest - Mary Harper

Yes, I mean now if you look at the map of Africa, West Africa, especially Sahelian countries are now increasingly – the countries that border the Gulf of Guinea, like Ghana, Benin, Togo – they are also now experiencing attacks. Ivory Coast as well, in the north. So that is something that is extremely worrying and that's been going on. I mean, they're not massive attacks, but the fact that these Islamist groups are moving in and exploiting local grievances, which is what happens all over Africa, it's not just to do with people having a fanatical obsession with this Islamist ideology. And that's the same in Somalia. And so these groups all across West Africa…and then think about Mozambique, there's also an ISIS affiliated group in eastern Congo. 

Now, one of the more active groups in Somalia itself is Islamic State, and in fact, some people say that the global leader of Islamic State is Mumin, who is in charge of Islamic State, Somalia. And the Americans tried to kill him…they failed. So, you have this…in so many countries, you've got these groups, and in West Africa, it's very, very complex because there's so many different groups, which are always splintering. Sometimes they fight each other, which is also what happens in Somalia with ISIS and Al Shabaab. They hate each other. And quite often, they'll either be associated by the authorities. For example, often the people who are pastoralists, especially the Fulani, they're often sort of accused of being Islamists when in fact it's because settled farmers hate them because they take their cattle through their lands. And with climate change, there's increased competition for resources. In northern Ghana, there's an exploitation of a row between people, two different groups who…both of them want to be the chief of the region. 

So there's always, I would say, there's no sort of very, totally purist mass force of jihadists or whatever you want to call them. You'll have sort of…the leadership might be very, very extreme, but a lot of the people who fight for them either do it for money or because they want to punish their neighbours. Or because they're bored, they have nothing to do. There's lots of different reasons. Or because they're forced to do it. But you do see, as you said, in West Africa – especially Sahel, Mali, Burkina Faso, northern Nigeria, Niger – that is now spreading southwards, and obviously, even if it's sort of the attacks…in a way they're insignificant, but it's notable. It's a pattern and obviously that creates, I mean, for example, for Europe, the thing that…obviously Europe is worried about potential attacks on its own soil, but the thing Europe really doesn't want is more migrants. And so the more instability you have, people are just going to head…more people are going to head towards Europe. 

And then also a bit like in the Horn of Africa where you have now, for example, the Houthis in Yemen on one side, and then you have Islamic State and Al Shabaab, and now there's increased pirate attacks, again, off the coast of Somalia because they're exploiting the instability whenever there's a chance people will conduct acts of piracy when they see an opportunity. They're opportunists. And so that has obviously disrupted a very, very important global shipping lane. And then you look also at the Gulf of Guinea, which is another very, very important…you think now a lot of the vessels that used to go down the Gulf of Aden, they're going all the way round the South, you know, the Cape. So, you think of all those vessels that are going that way, not only do you have piracy there, but if you are going to have a sort of Islamist insurgencies that are spreading towards the coast… that is going to threaten like a whole other corner of global trade. So it affects all of us, I mean, the prices of things in our supermarkets are affected by the fact that shipping in the Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, is under…either ships can't be insured, and they have to go all the way around, or they are at risk of attacks. So, these things affect us not just in terms of potential attacks, but in terms of the cost of living for everybody.

Host - Felix 

That's really interesting. So, political instability in these areas seems to be at the heart of much of this, and we've seen also a lot of non-African nations have been quite deeply involved in counterterrorism support and operations within these countries that you mentioned, which are often struggling with militant insurgencies. How much do you think that these other nations’ intentions are purely altruistic, or how much of it is that they're trying to use counterterrorism as a foothold into these countries?

Guest - Mary Harper

I don't think any nation is involved for altruistic reasons when it comes to fighting, or trying to fight, these groups. If there's a humanitarian disaster somewhere, foreign powers might be motivated by genuinely altruistic reasons. But when it comes to this, I mean, often it's to do with trying to make sure that those groups don't attack those countries. This is to do with self-defence really. Plus, for example, when it's affecting shipping routes, then it's because of the economic consequences….and also because of migration. I'd say those are the three reasons.

At the same time, you see for example, the French who always, after colonisation, they couldn't let go of Africa. They really found it difficult and they intervened and they had lots of military bases. And I mean, when there was an Islamist/ethnic insurgency that took over half of Mali in a matter of weeks, the French did just send in planes and they whacked those people and they succeeded. So they initially, in Mali, they were very successful in terms of, not entirely defeating, but disabling an insurgency. But France also became very, very unpopular in those countries, partly because of its colonial past, and also because of a certain arrogance, and also over time, a failure to deal with the problem. 

And so then you see, for example, in some of those countries, the form of Wagner group of the Russians. And you know, they get involved. Why? Partly because of resources. You see that all over Africa. Countries that, for example, Turkey in Somalia, initially in 2011 when there was the world's first 21st century famine, Erdogan, who's now president – he was Prime Minister at the time of Turkey – he went there with his wife and walked amongst the people and cried. And it, kind of, led to something a bit like Band-Aid did here. The Turkish people…I spent quite a lot of time in Turkey and with the Turks in Somalia…and it generated this enormous kind of humanitarian wave. “We've got to help our Muslim brothers and sisters”. But also, I don't know whether there was already a cunning plan on behalf of Turkey because; number one, this neo-Ottoman psychology of Erdogan and his supporters, they kind of wanted to have a sort of Ottoman influence. Plus, they needed a gateway into Africa, and maybe Somalia was an eccentric one, but they got a great deal of support, not just Somalis, but more generally because it's like, “these people are helping us and they're helping us effectively. They're building roads. They're not, sort of, just staying in their bunkers in the Green Zone in Mogadishu or in fancy places in Nairobi”. And then now you see Turkey…like they've got their largest military base outside Turkey in Somalia. And like, when you go, I've driven past it several times, when you go South of Mogadishu and you're just like, “is this still the base?”, because it just goes on and on and on and on. They're also training Somali forces and they do drone attacks in Somalia, as do the Americans, whether they're still going to do that now that Donald Trump is in power…? Turkey is also benefiting economically tremendously from doing business in Somalia because it is in charge of the port, of the airport. It builds lots of buildings. It has exports, etc. So, it wasn't purely, they're not just, they weren't just there, even if they were there initially, because of emotion, they were also cunning. 

And you see that all over the place in terms of any foreign power that intervenes. Partly they're afraid of, especially maybe the Americans and the Europeans, they're afraid that they might be subject to attacks by Al Shabaab sympathisers or others, or individuals as we've seen in the UK. Even if they're not influenced by that kind of ideology and in fact just, I think a couple of days ago, somebody was arrested in the US accused of funding Al Shabaab and wanting to go join Al Shabaab. So, maybe it's not people from Al Shabaab, or those groups coming to blow up things in America, or the UK, or Europe. It's more that it's attracting people from outside and, for example, there was a big attack in North eastern Somalia in this semi-autonomous region of Puntland by Islamic State, and all the people involved, not a single one of them was Somali. They were Tanzanians, Moroccans, different nationalities. And that shows that Somalia also attracts foreign fighters. So it works in…it's complex. It works in lots of different ways, but I would say that there's no country that intervenes and tries to fight these groups purely to help that country become more stable.

Host - Felix 

Interesting. And so that's what brings me on to my next point on what does this mean for the UK then? This, sort of, shifting political landscape in Africa. You've mentioned, sort of, interest overseas as well as trade routes, supply chains…So, what does the current situation in Africa and the future situation in Africa mean specifically for the UK and for Europe?

Guest - Mary Harper

Umm, of course you've got that issue, which is such a hot issue in Europe, Britain, and the US to do with migration. It's just such a strong political issue and obviously conflict, climate change, humanitarian disasters, lead to an increase in that. In terms of whether those groups scattered all over Africa now are capable, or even interested in, conducting big attacks or small attacks in the UK or other countries in Europe or America…I'm sure a lot of them would like to. The fact that some of these groups and a lot of these groups now are more interested in…the longer they're there, the kind of more entrenched they get with the local scene and more preoccupied they get. So in a way they get…as they become sort of governing forces or they take over smuggling routes…all these kinds of things…in a way, they become more practical, and so they don't think so much about “we're going to go and blow up Saint Paul's”, or something like that. 

But that's not to say that there are people who wouldn't want to do that, or who might even be planning or thinking about doing that. You also have to think that sort of counter terror operations, for example in the UK, because this has been going on for a long time, they've got better at monitoring and, they say, preventing planned attacks. At the same time, you do have these individuals, for example, there was a young Somali who murdered an MP in the UK and he came from a middle class family. It wasn't like he was some marginalised Somali here, who was a sort of lone jihadist person.

Host - Felix 

This is David Amos that you're referring to?

Guest - Mary Harper

Exactly. Yeah. You know, his family are middle class people. They were relatively comfortable. So, it's difficult to, kind of, explain why this family and this boy…why he developed that kind of mentality and that strong, so strong that he could go and do something like that. But I think that is a very different form of risk to the UK than some big, well planned, well executed attack. And I mean, I might be wrong, but I've seen, if you look at the sort of pattern of these different groups in terms of their interest or ability to stage such attacks…it doesn't seem to be a priority, and also they might not have the resources to do it. It's very difficult to say why, but at the moment the pattern seems to be that they're more focused on their regions, than in performing big acts of global terror. At the same time, they love doing things like that because it gives them publicity and, for example, Al Shabaab which I know best, they're very, very good at all of that. They have an incredibly sophisticated media operation, so they love doing things that hit the headlines. So, I wouldn't say it's not a risk anymore, but the pattern suggests that, at the moment anyway, the risk has been reduced, but I might be proved completely wrong.

Host - Felix 

Well, we never know do we? But do you think there's potentially a chance that we could see a caliphate in Africa in the same way that Islamic State were able to set one up in the Middle East? Or do you think, because it's so nationalistic and there's so many groups, that that prevents a territory like that being held?

Guest - Mary Harper

Yeah, that's a really good question and from what I've observed across the continent – because you have so many intertwined interests going on with these groups to do with ethnicity, to do with clan, to do with lifestyle, like pastoralists and farmers – it seems like, and also these groups have a tendency to fragment and to split, that's very common…and it's very difficult to see how groups that actually tend more to splinter that unite could actually establish any effective caliphate. They might establish, sort of, mini caliphates in certain parts of certain countries, and they like to say, for example, the Islamic State group that is fighting in eastern Congo, you know, they'll sometimes say, “oh, we're affiliated to the group in Mozambique, etc”. And sometimes they'll swap knowledge and maybe a few fighters and weapons. But I would say that it's very unlikely, because of the fragmented nature within countries, as well as all these different countries, and having different sort of national identities…Africa's not very good at kind of forming even like economic, regional economic groupings. It's getting a bit better, but often the sort of hostilities or resentments between states, I think would also make it difficult to have some kind of pan-African or regional-African Caliphate.

Host - Felix 

Fascinating. Well, Mary, thank you so much. We've managed to cover an absolutely huge amount in a short space of time and an absolutely fascinating insight into an area of terrorism and geopolitics which not many people may know very much about. So, thank you very much for your insights.

Guest - Mary Harper

Thank you for having me. 

Host – Felix 

No problem. Thank you. 

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